Reconstruction of Felt Subarmalis and Linen Pteryges

[Tarbicus]

the mail won't keep the damp out, but the leather will.

And likewise, the leather will not only keep the sweat in, it'll also create more sweat.

I think I've seen one painted depiction of Roman pteryges in brown, all of the rest are red, blue, etc, and mostly white. Pteryges are protection not decoration, and for leather to be flexible enough it has to be fairly thin, as opposed to multiple NOT GLUED layers of linen which will retain flexibility in those areas most needed - the upper arms and upper legs.

[Doc]

Good point Tarbicus,

I too doubt that the pteryges layers were glued especially after my friend completed his.

My friend who made the pteryges on this thread tried with glue. The pterygion made from layers glued together was soooo stiff that if would have no value except for staying straight down. Not to mention that the glue upon wetting and soaking began to weaken.

An effective pterygion would have stiffness due to thickness and flexibilty upon movement of the body especially in the legs and arms as Tarbicus points out. The pteryges of my friend are flexible but have rigidity which keeps them down and avoids them from scattering too far from each other causing gaps where the tunic or leg is visible.

Paolo

[Robert]

Salve!

All pteruges in pictures are of people wearing a curas, as far as I know. All I was asking is whether or not it would make sense distinguishing between the curas associated linothorax (lots of data!) and the elusive subarmalis for under mail (and seg). At present, these two are often shoved in the same heap, and I question the validity of that. Does anyone know of sculpture depicting a common soldier wearing mail or seg with pteruges visible? If so, do these follow the line of sculpture of the "curas carriers"? It would be interesting making the distinction for reconstruction purposes, if the distinction can indeed be made.

[Tarbicus]

The Adamklissi metopes show soldiers wearing pteryges with hamata and squamata.

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/c ... metope.htm
http://www.romanarmy.ie/Adamklissi_HD.htm

They simply protrude from below the armour, and have no fancy scalloping. Check the B&C2 illustration I did, to Bishop and Coulston's specs. The latter is a leading expert on interpreting these kinds of reliefs (as is Mike, but you know what I mean).
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i311/ ... _small.jpg

I was thinking of using that myself, Jim, but as most seems to be synthetic, I decided against it! :?

Some antique pale gold fringe made from wool thread just arrived from the US. Check Ebay international listings, they can be very cheap.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thanks again Jim. Will check it out!

[tlclark]

Got to weigh in here:

Blocking the felt, by wetting it and pressing it, makes them much stiffer and much more like the statuary.

I have three ideas regarding pteruges

1. All the evidence suggests fabric construction or fabric coverings at the least. Even then the drape and stiffness of the material suggests linen (or something else) and not leather.

2. The linothorax is a major source for the musculata (less certain about other types of armor) so we can suspect that the subarmalis is of similar construction in the musculata I think.

3. The fringe and borders appear to be intergral which would exist with a linothorax type construction, but not leather. I believe the fringe to be a natural product of the construction.

That leaves, linen covered leather, linen layers, or some weft-faced woven material, perhaps tablet woven.

weft faced weave has a distinctive diamond chevron pattern to the weave. This is near identical to what we see on many of the statue. In the weft faced example, the fringe is mearly the linen warp exposed at the end. The bound edges are also a natural product of weft faced weaving, as in a navajo rug.

I think it is very possible we are seeing heavy woolen woven bands. I reconstructed mine as felt with linen covers, but getting the band to bind all three edges is awkward at best. And we don't see a bottom band on some greek linothorax with fringe.

Just something to chew on.

[Tarbicus]

Travis, good to see you've weighed in.

I see a separate pteryge and fringe on these examples:

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... ican2a.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... ndet2a.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... simo2a.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... ndet2a.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... icataa.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... sdet5a.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... stdeta.jpg

They may be aspects of construction, though I feel those examples that are more likely to be 'bullion' rather than twisted linen ends are added.

Just MHO.

[Robert]

Thanks for the pics, Tarbicus, very helpfull. Two rows, no frills.

[Tarbicus]

Robert, I'd personally judge it by how long the armour is.

[FlaviusCrispus]

And likewise, the leather will not only keep the sweat in, it'll also create more sweat.

I've seen this trope repeated without challenge in a lot of forums. But my subarmalis is leather, I've been wearing it under both segmentata and hamata for two years now, and I've never felt that it either "kept sweat in," or "created more sweat" than a padded garment of wool, felt or linen would have done. My previous subarmalis had been made of linsey-wooly (a linen-wool blend), and I'd estimate the amount of sweat I generated wearing that and the amount it absorbed is roughly comparable, judging from my own comfort level (I had no "sweat-o-meter" with which to measure how much sweat I was generating). My current subarmalis is made of thin vegie-tanned calfskin (maybe 1-2 oz?), with the rough unfinished side on the inside. Worn over a linen or wool tunic, I feel it "breathes" just fine, I'm perfectly comfortable, and whatever sweat I do generate (and living in SoCal, with most of our events in the heat of summer or early fall, whatever you wear under armor, you're gonna sweat!), once it passes through the tunic, gets absorbed by the subarmalis. My tunic is usually a little damp when I strip off my armor after a full day, but it's not dripping wet and it was comparably damp when I wore my fabric subarmalis. The leather's also a little damp, suggesting it has absorbed and passed through some sweat, but there are no rivulets running down the inside, which would be the case if it was some kind of steam box holding heat and moisture in.

When I first made my subarmalis, I worried about comfort and considered poking hundreds of tiny holes in it to help it breathe, but this proved wholly uncecessary. I use a commercial leather cleaner every now to clean it up between wearings, but otherwise leave it alone. This is not to suggest that ancient subarmali were all made of leather, or linen, or felt, or anything else, just that by my own experience in a hot climate, leather is no less comfortable than the other possible materials, and can't be ruled out on that basis.

[Tarbicus]

Okay Dave, point taken. Is your subarmalis padded, or just there to protect your tunic?

[FlaviusCrispus]

Is your subarmalis padded, or just there to protect your tunic?

It was originally made to go under my seg, so it's padded at the shoulders and back of the neck, but not all the way down the torso. Here's a picture of it in its original form a couple of years back...

http://www.legionsix.org/mth01010.jpg

With the scalloped edge, I was trying to replicate the look seen on some guys wearing seg on the Column of Marcus Aurelius.

Since I got promoted to Centurio and started wearing a hamata, I've since added more pteruges to the bottom layer and a second layer of shorter, fringed pteruges, to look more like M. Favonius Facilis and others:

http://www.legionsix.org/fort%20mac%2007/centurio2.jpg

I'm going to go back and do some more work on it when I get the chance, but I think I'll keep the leather construction.

[M. Demetrius]

Nice gear. No need to change it to sit around my campfire. You're welcome any time, Centurio.

[Aetius Helvius Merula]

Good to know about the leather, Centurio. I've been looking ahead to how I'll make my subarmalis. Have you had to, or wanted to, add more padding since you wore your hamata over it?

[Tarbicus]

Actually, I might switch to felt with a thin leather outer layer:

De rebus bellicis 15

Expositio thoracomachi

Inter omnia quae ad usum bellicum provida posteritatis cogitavit antiquitas, thoracomachum quoque mira utilitate ad levamen corporis armorum ponderi et asperitati subiecit. Hoc enim vestimenti genus, quod de coactili ad mensuram et tutelam pectoris humani conficitur, de mollibus lanis timoris sollicitudo sollertia magistra composuit ut hoc inducto primum lorica vel clivanus aut his similia fragilitatem corporis ponderis asperitate non laederent. Membra quoque vestientis inter armorum hiemisque discrimen tali solatio adiuta labori sufficiant. Sane ne idem thoracomachus pluviis verberatus ingravescente pondere adficiat vestientem, de Libycis bene confectis pellibus ad instar eiusdem thoracomachi faciem conveniet superinducere. Hoc igitur, ut diximus, thoracomacho inducto, qui Graeca appellationne ex tuitione corporis nomen assumpsit, soccis etiam, hoc est calciamentis, et ferratis ocreis inductis, superposita galea et scuto vel gladio lateri aptato, arreptis lanceis in plenum pedestrem subiturus pugnam miles armabitur

'Exposition on the thoracomachus

Among all those things which antiquity has thought of with an eye to postery for wartime use, it also conceived the thoracomachus of remarkable usefulness as relief for the body of the weight and discomfort of arms. For this kind of clothing, which is made of felt to the size and care of the human chest, the concern for fear has made of soft wool strands with utmost care in order that after this was put on first a body armour or cuirass or things similar to these would not damage the frailty of the body through the discomfort of the weight. The limbs as well will up to the work in the moment of arms or bad weather helped through the relief provided by such a garment. In order to prevent this thoracomachus from hampering the wearer when drenched in rains through increasing weight, it is useful to put on on top a garmant made from well prepared Libyan hides to the precise specification of the thoracomachus. Therefore, having put on this thoracomachus, as we say, which has taken up its name from the Greek expression because of the protection of the body, and his boots, that is shoes, and having put on iron greaves, with the helmet put on top and with shield or sword at the side, with spears grasped the soldier will be armed in full to enter the infantry battle.'

Sander van Dorst: http://p209.ezboard.com/Organic-materia ... D=13.topic

I wonder if Libyan hide is just plain old suede?