Liquid Hide Glue, Successful Use

[Hibernicus]

Before we started gluing up scutums with liquid hide glue I wanted to be dead certain that the liquid hide glue worked as good as granular hide glue which has to be mixed and heated to be used effectively.

I used granular hide for the first time about 45 years ago when I was 7 years old. My grandfather familiarized me with the process in regard to furniture repair. I next had an opporunity to use granular hide glue when I was 17 working for an antique furniture repair shop. My skills were valuable! Regluing chairs and dressers, repairing veneers, making wood filler...

When we decided to attempt to learn how scutums went together we used granular hide glue. We first performed experiments using granular hide glue and liquid hide glue, by laminating strips of wood, allowing the glue to cure and then attempting to pry them apart.

Our first shield using granular hide glue was a parma... smaller than a scutum and flat!

We discovered no difference between either glue. None. It took just as much effort to pry them apart.

I will not go into the problems using granular hide glue (that's a whole other thread!) but will say both granular hide glue and liquid hide glue have their own unique sets of issues related to use.

The single biggest problem related to using liquid hide glue is using glue that has expired. Many anecdotal problem stories can be found on the internet. Each bottle is labled with an expiration date and should not be used after that date. Once a bottle is opened it should be used as quickly as possible. Storing an opened bottle in a fridge extends it use but it will still become useless after a time. Also an unopened bottle of liquid hide glue can deteriorate if its not stored properly. This is why we use pint bottles and not 5 gallon containers.

Most problems related to using liquid hide glue can be traced to the use of expired or old glue.

The one advantage granular hide glue has over liquid is that it has no shelf life. Even if it dries in your glue pot it can be revitalized and used again and again.

We have successfuly glued up almost 20 scutums... so far (some are still in the presses) . The problems we've had are related to improper pressing and improper glue up.. thus our trials and tribulations with modifying the Hispana Scutum Press.

From my experiences using both granular hide glue and liquid hide glue I have found absolutely no difference.

[Matt Lukes]

I did a lot of research on the subject of hide glue back two years ago when I made my first authentic scutum, and nowhere that commercial liquid (at room temperature) hide glue was mentioned was it not negatively- virtually invariably were people solely for the real thing. Given that the whole idea was to produce the most authentic scutum possible, I had no trouble with just not bothering considering anything but the proper granular stuff, but it's interesting to hear, Sean, that you've decided to try the commercial stuff out. Since there's a wide range of strengths for granular hide glue, but none that I know of for the commercial liquid stuff, I presume you found out what that was and used the equivalent granular stuff for the test?

I guess it's not terribly surprising that you find no difference in your 'pull apart' testing- the suggestion is never that liquid hide glue is actually weak:

"Commercial liquid hide glues have gel suppressants & remain liquid at room temperature. ... slightly greater tendency for the joint to “creep,â€

[Hibernicus]

As I stated one can find plenty of stories regarding the use of liquid hide glue, stories for and against its use. Most of the anecdotal problems are related to use in fine wood working such as instruments and veneers.

Fact is that liquid hide glue works very well for scutums. It is simpler to use than granular, has a shorter learning curve and has a longer working life during glue up. Liquid hide glue is still hide glue.

Hints: Use fresh liquid hide glue. If a bottle does not have an expiration date do not buy it or use it. After you open a bottle use it as quickly as possible, within days. Refrigerate an opened bottle but do not plan on storing it for weeks, use it quickly.

If you have the capability and capacity to use granular hide glue plus the time and willingness to learn how to use it I highly recommend it!

A reminder: The destructive scutum testing Legio IX Hispana will do will iinclude a scutum made with granular hide glue.

Also, all of our experiences and the results of our tests will appear on our web page in a few weeks, including how we assemble scutums.

More info from Titebond:
Open, scroll down a bit and click on Liquid Hide Glue
<http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=1>

[scythius]

Matt -

One should note that luthiers want certain properties to the hide glue - and being able to steam apart a glue joint is certainly one of those properties. This is why so many of the links you've cited are from luthiry sites (with a couple of fine woodworking sites thrown in for good measure)

Those same properties are what makes making and using the new scutums such a learning experience. Since we started the scutum project for the group, we've learned that we CAN'T be lazy slackers about storage and care - the way we were when we were using birch and luaun plywood, aliphatic resin glues and modern house paint - our guys often start making their weather covers before the scutae are out of the press

I'll be at a music retreat starting tomorrow, and won't see net access for another 10 days or so - I'm not ignoring anyone - I'm ignoring everyone!

[Hibernicus]

Scithius repairs and restores a variety of instruments, usually "Middle Eastern".. and man can he play! The music camp he refers to is an annual convention. He'll be taking classes on playing, selling some items etc. etc.

The use of hide glue for "structural" projects is different than for fine woodworking. Met a bowyer sometime back and he was real picky about hide glue. Didn't like standard generic granular or liquid hide glues.. he preferred rabbit glue and was understandably picky about the mix, water to granules ratio, its temperature, length of time to cook, ambient air temp and humidity....

A new tidbit.. we just glued up a scutum and used unprocessed rawhide. (Most rawhide has been bleached and treated in some manner.) The stuff we picked up is about as raw as you can get... handscraped, air dried.. no bleaching or processing... and guess what! It sticks like a sunnova-bitch! with hide glue onto alder! ....wow!

Another change we'll be making to our club specs for scutums.

[scythius]

Met a bowyer sometime back and he was real picky about hide glue. Didn't like standard generic granular or liquid hide glues.. he preferred rabbit glue and was understandably picky about the mix, water to granules ratio, its temperature, length of time to cook, ambient air temp and humidity....

The uncle of one of my music teachers from Turkiye is a traditional bowyer (horn bows) and for part of the construction he uses fish glue as well as rabbit (or hare) skin glue.

The uncle also competes in a traditional Anatolian equestrian sport that the Turks call cerit (that's pronounced jeh-REET) that involves two horsemen throwing blunted wooden javelins at each other - sounds familiar, eh? Sinan's uncle recognizes that it's a game that the ancient dwellers of Asia Minor learned from the Romans.

[Hibernicus]

We had a couple of scutums that delaminated before they were completed.. moisture problems. Soaked them until they softened and put them back in the presses. Success!

We've also started having our new guys make scutum covers before they make a scutum.

[Hibernicus]

We.ve started using Knox Gelatin as an animal glue (calf/bovine foot parts) for affixing the linen to scutums and then the rawhide cover to scutums.. seems superior to regular hide glue.