Spartan hype?

[PMBardunias]

Ah, your double-sad emoticons confused me. I thought I had guessed wrong and insulted you.

Quite right ! Once the half-files moved up into close order 'shield to shield', no manouevre other than advance was possible - one of the main reasons to do this, along with creating a solid fighting 'wall'.......so your psiloi had better have been recalled before you closed up !!

First thing, let me make sure I understand your position. When exactly do you think they "closed up?" I thought You believed that they came onto the battlefield, stood in files of 12, and advanced in this depth and loose spacing. Then upon contact with the enemy phalanx, the rear 6 men of the file filtered between the lines to form a close-packed 6 deep phalanx. Let me know if I am misunderstanding you.

I won't just gloss over Isocrates comment since there is no reason that he would not have followed the ranking convention and labeled them as a "2" by your scheme.

Nonsense, I could teach recruits to do this type of manouevre by ranks i.e. open order to close order and back in half an hour( and have done! ), let alone by files/half-files, which is much easier. Xenophon describes how it was practised by the files going to their mess etc.The Ten Thousand, hoplites from all over Greece, and not Spartans don't seem to have had any trouble moving from open to close order and vice versa.
Any Hoplites could do this in a heartbeat.

But could they do it once they had run 200 meters and their front line had engaged? I doubt it. If you are into the literature on this, as you seem to be, you'll know that most authors assume that the phalanx cannot keep its formation and spacing through the charge. The usual tendency is to assume that they spread out, but this is not true. They extend along the line of advance and contract laterally. This is simple herd dynamics, if they cannot maintain their spacing, they will invariably become more compact. At the end of the charge there would be no room for files to filter into. Thukydides comment makes it clear that the spacing is not opened during the charge, but tightens as men seek their neighbors. Even he did not fully understand what was occurring though, the men could not but be biased right by the position they advanced in.

Why ? He had obviously studied the subject and had access to more and better sources than you and I. His and the other 'drill manuals' are really all we have to go on, so why disregard them in favour of modern, totally theoretical ideas ??.

I don't dismiss him, but we have to acknowledge that he has certain biases based on the fact that he grew up in a specific tactical doctrine. The word phalanx for example did not have the same meaning that it did to Xenophon. I don't think you'd deny that both you and I probably have a better understanding of Mycenaean warfare than homer.

And if you read it carefully, he is describing hoplite warfare, almost pure and simple, and in particular addressing the Thebans and their tactics, as well as what the Spartans should do in his fictional battle of "Thymbrara".

It is Thymbara that makes me question its utility. The Cyropaedia often digresses into a fantasy world of cavalry action and missile warfare that went beyond what was common in Greek battles. What this was was Xenophon reflecting on what could be done with cavalry of the type that he knew from Anatolia- and that Agiselaos formed. In this it almost has more in common with what was to come from Thessaly and Macedon than Sparta. If he meant the assyrians at Thymbara to be Thebans, then he, like Cleombrotus, misunderstood what the Thebans were doing and percieved it to be an attempt at envelopment. I like to give him more credit, and the date of the Cyropaedia is fairly late, so I think it is mostly fantasy, but I believe the way his forces hit the advancing column in the unshielded side is what the Spartan plan was at Mantinea. To hit them on the right as they pushed the Mantineans back.

That 'shoving' by groups here and there took place is possible, even likely, see e.g. footage of riots, but on a co-ordinated lengthy front, never !!

I think you overestimate the amount of coordination needed. Anyone who has been to a sporting event has seen a long linear crowd coordinate to do a "wave". All the coordination is local and in small sections. The synchronicity is only important from the rear to front ranks, not laterally along the line. The clashing lines may well have looked like a writhing snake from above.

How do you explain 'counter-marching' ?
'Doubling' (a.k.a halving) the file ?

But when? Once the lines had met? Not likely since if they could do this they could do such things as fight in relays instead of closing up. I don't doubt that they could move in half files, only that this was the depth they engaged in.

Each lochagoi leading his file 'two by two'? - Cyropaedia
The references to files of 'tens and fives', and 'twelves and sixes' ? - ibid
The Ten Thousand's "Battle formation" i.e. close order as four deep?.....

I think Xenophon's 4 ranks formations against non-hoplites are the exception that prove the rule. There was little fear of extended othismos against the ill-equiped asiatics- even egyptians who could push but would have been unable to bear such pressure long. thus the hoplites did not need their usual depth and formed for maximum length.