Iphicrates\' Reforms illustration

[JP Vieira]

Hello
Here is one of my latest illustrations
http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/j ... 47144.aspx
It depicts Greek Light Troops of the early 4th Century BC, the consequence of Iphicrates reforms.
I would appreciate all commentaries, particularly historically; this illustration was based on published works and, as this is a subject of much debate (Iphicrates' reforms), I would love all extra data that can be present in order to improve the historically accuracy of this illustration.
Of course artistically comments are also very welcome.
Many thanks to all
Best regards
JP Vieira

[PMBardunias]

Looks good, I like the juxtaposition with the Cretan and old-school peltast.

2 points: Were the boots closed toed?

I seem to recall the shield was "symmetrical" as opposed to round. This may mean oval.

[Sean Manning]

Interesting. A beautiful painting, JP. As others have said, the selection and posing of figures and background are very nice.

I'm somewhat skeptical of the un-faced wicker shield. Do you have any evidence for oval wicker (not sticks threaded through hide) shields used in combat? I know peltai may have been of faced wicker construction judging by art, although as far as I know we don't have any examples. Thucydides speaks scornfully of wicker aspides at one point, and I think Caesar has some treacherous Gauls make shields out of wicker and skins after they have surrendered their proper arms. (I've lost my sources- sorry!) Gerra could be shields of sticks-and-hide construction, of course, and Pausanias twice implies they could be oblong.

[geala]

A very good work! I like the different troops shown, the colours and the composition. Clever to show the hoplite on a stone to bring the whole spear into. People in a landscape give always a better impression than mere portraits.

In my opinion the round shield for the Iphicratian "peltast" is a possibility. Diodoros mentioned symmetrical peltes. That is often interpreted as oval, but I don't see why that should be the only solution. A circle is also symmetrical (or not? math is one of my weakest spots) so the term could mean round peltes contrary to the crescent formed ones of the Thracians. Or: a pelte is flat, so symmetrical (looking at the edge), unlike an aspis with the convex front side and the flat back side. Nepos said "a pelte instead of a parma". An early parma was round and perhaps about 90 cm in diameter, like an aspis. He wanted to express that a smaller shield was introduced so he named it pelte. If it would have had another form perhaps he would have mentioned it?

The only problem I have is the wicker oval shield. I concur with what Sean Manning said. And a shield of wicker, not covered with hide, linen or leather, would have offered far less than optimal protection, wouldn't it?

What is the hoplite's cuirass composed of? Leather or coloured linen (the latter I think)? Do you have a source for stitching?

It is about Iphicratian tropps, but most I like the Cretan archer. :wink: Do you have a source for the diameter of the bronze shield they used sometimes according to Xenophon?

[JP Vieira]

Hello
Many thanks on your comments.
As I mentioned I used published sources for this illustration.
The final presentation of equipment is debatable but that is what i want: to create some discussion about this matter (that really interests me).
Trying to answer some questions raised here:
- boots- I represented both open and closed, because i do not think there is enough evidence to exclude one or the other type;
- the shape of the shield is symmetrical, so this form can be used (I guess...);
- the wicker shield- you are both right, a leather covering would be more practical;
- the size of the bronze shield: I do not know the exact dimensions but it couldn't have been too different from the one illustrated: smaller it would give no protection and bigger would be too cumbersome.
I hope we can discuss this matter further and appreciate all extra data available.
Many thanks to all
Best regards

[PMBardunias]

Diodoros mentioned symmetrical peltes. That is often interpreted as oval, but I don't see why that should be the only solution. A circle is also symmetrical (or not? math is one of my weakest spots) so the term could mean round peltes contrary to the crescent formed ones of the Thracians.

I agree this is a hard one, even a square is symmetrical. Afterall, you could say a dyplon is a symmetrical pelta- doubled with the "horns" facing away. I don't think he meant round or square since that would be so easy to say flat out. Oval seems the default.

[hoplite14gr]

Square shields made it to the begining of the Archaic Era and probably later in the areas where hoplite tactics did not full developed.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... n_6029.jpg

The mercenaries were trained to use both spears and javelins and chose their weapons depending on the mission or tactical situation.

Most probably boots might be also thracian. Athenians had long contacts with the area and frequently recruited from there.

Our archers in the club had serious difficulty using the shield as you painted it while shooting. It is not deemed practical.

Hope it helps kind regards

[Sean Manning]

Our archers in the club had serious difficulty using the shield as you painted it while shooting. It is not deemed practical.

Hope it helps kind regards

Well, some archers definitely used small round shields while shooting in the middle ages. David Niccole discusses it in various books like his Medieval Warfare Sourcebook Vol. 2. Stefanos, did your archer friends try learning to let the arrow rest on their left thumbs (right of the bow, for a right-handed archer) rather than the side of their left hands (left of the bow, for a right-handed archer) before release? Judging by some medieval paintings reproduced in Niccole's books, this was part of the necessary techniques.

[PMBardunias]

He Sean. I don't think you can do that. If the bow string comes off your fingers to the left- as when you use a finger draw as I believe the Cretans did- the arrow must rest on the left of the bowstaff or it does not launch properly. This is tied to the "Archer's paradox" about how a flexible arrow goes in a straight line around the bow saff though the string and staff are in line, thus the arrow is pointing a bit off to the left.

What you probably saw are representations of turks, mongols, etc. They let the string fall off their thumbs, with a special ring, and so to the right.

I can't say if such a draw aids in managing shields, but it is stronger and easier to hold in position longer. My guess is it is just coincidence that the position and shield are linked.

A true archer would know better than me.

[geala]

If an archer uses a shield as small as JP Vieira depicted, it is perhaps possible to shoot with the finger draw and the arrow left from the bow. The rim of the shield is far away enough from the hand not to collide with the arrow. An archer should give us his view. With the finger draw, JPs interpretation is the only one that makes sense.

Or the Cretans did not use the shield while shooting, but on other occasions? I thought till now that the Cretans used bigger shields, of a pelte size. With my 60 cm pelte it is not possible (for me at least) to use the arrow left the bow. And also with the thumb draw with the arrow on the right it is not very comfortable, but possible. An experienced man could perhaps do with ease.

Is it impossible that Greek archers used the thumb draw? I think of a picture on a vase (in one of the Ospreys, have it not nearby, so I don't know what draw is shown) where an Greek (Cretan?) archer seems to shoot with a rather big shield, nearly an aspis. I cannot imagine this with the finger draw. It may be bad knowledge of the artist however.

[hoplite14gr]

Archers have good results with very small leather targets of steppes origin.

Our archers tried metalic shield like the one depicted in the illustration and found it uncomfortable.

Cretans were agressive and engaged in close combat with other light troops. Thats where the shield comes handy.

Kind regards

[JP Vieira]

Hello
Stefanos, can you provide some extra data on your pratical experiences with this bow-shield combination?
Best regards
JP Vieira

[hoplite14gr]

Sean I feel that the archers of medieval times used step type shield after 1250 AD in my opinion but I did not tried personally and I will try to persuade them to examine the posibilities as you mention in your post.

JP please look at this link to see step archers with small leather shields.
http://www.wolfgaardarmoury.com/horsebows.htm
I doubt though that Cretans used the shields depicted here.

We used a 50 cm 18 gouge bronze metal shield. Just metal not leather inside.
Pushing the shields almost to the shoulder to expose the palm and hold the bow.
One archer complained that the weight of the shield was too much while taking aim and the other that the rim of the shield was irksome to his wrist.

I still believe Cretan used the shield when engaged hand to hand.

Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

... the 'published sources' for the two right hand figures in J.P's excellent painting is p.67 of "Warfare in the Classical World" ,and they were drawn by two different artists from my sketches/research. ( I won't assert copyright, J.P. !!)
The Iphicratean Hoplite was based on the literary descriptions, and he is wearing an Asiatic quilted linen cuirass because the Editor wanted 'something different' having already shown the spolas- type twice !!
I do not believe that the 12 ft spear was ever widely used, though specifically described in the sources. The best explanation of Iphicrates reforms and who they applied to is given by Luke Ueda-Sarson(who ascribed it to Athenian marines, longer spears often being used shipboard) - google his excellent web-site for a full article on the subject and much else pertaining to Greek/Macedonian warfare.
The inspiration for the plain wicker shield came, IIRC, from vase paintings, but I cannot now recall specifically which ones. The oval is a little problematic - it may have been the vase-painter's depiction of a circular shield held at an angle, but as I cannot remember which one, or the details, I simply don't know !! :oops: :oops:
On the subject of boots, I believe both open and closed varieties are illustrated.
On the subject of shielded archers, I can't recall any depictions of such from the ancient world, but the written sources refer to Cretan troops carrying shields, and I think someone turned up an ancient depiction/funeral monument? (illustrated elsewhere on RAT, I think) but that doesn't mean they were archers, or that shields were held while shooting !!

[PMBardunias]

Luke's site is great, and the link to Egyptian marines is interesting.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/MilHist.html

Years ago I read a book I no longer have access to about sarissaphoroi being a pre-existing peltast type in Thrace. I think the author was named Best.

I know a lot of new information has come out about Thrace in recent years- Webber's site is outstanding if you can figure out how to get on it, there's some voodoo involved. I have seen some vases with peltasts with long double-ended spears, but has anything new surfaced?