Scutum paint

[richsc]

Ok folks, back on track here.
Original question was latex vs. milk paint. And I offer to paint your shields at our next fabrica. We can show you side by side what they look like. I even have custom milk paint made from various raw pigment from [url:308rm8os]http://www.sinopia.com[/url] if you want to mix your own.
I think it's not a problem to paint latex over cassein if you decide otherwise.

No need to seal latex: it's plastic

I think about a single bag of milk paint does an entire shield, front back. You can't really keep it long since it's a chemical reaction, where the casein and lime are making a kind of concrete. Thus it hardens over a few days. Really hard.

[SOCL]

Ok folks, back on track here.
Original question was latex vs. milk paint. And I offer to paint your shields at our next fabrica. We can show you side by side what they look like. I even have custom milk paint made from various raw pigment from http://www.sinopia.com if you want to mix your own.

Sorry, Richard. I somehow missed your offer before I last posted. :oops: :oops: That would be fantastic! I would certainly reimburse you for the cost of materials!

[Matthew Amt]

Shoot, I'm sorry, Saul, I didn't see that that was YOU! Didn't recognize "SOCL" and missed your signature. Senility...

Anyways, coulda saved myself a lot of hot air because any new shield built for Legio XX use can NOT be painted with acrylic or latex paint. Casein or wax encaustic are your current choices. That's just where we draw the line. Now, if they're just for your own enjoyment, it's your call, but just keep in mind that sooner or later you might want to bring one out to a Legio XX event...

Casein paints can be bought in small tubes from art supply places, for colors that you won't need much of. I have a tube of black, for instance. Only buy the bags of colors you need a lot of, such as red and maybe yellow (though I have a supply of yellow, blue, and I think white). Actually mixing your own colors by adding pigments to base paint is fine, and gives you more variation if you want it, the only problem being if you need to mix up more and can't get the color to match! Fair warning.

After you see a few shields done with different paints, you CAN tell the difference easily, even from some distance. The color and finish are simply not the same. They even wear and tear differently. In fact, I'd say that casein with a wax or oil coating is tougher than latex paint, though we don't do a lot of deliberate bashing.

Yes, we DO still have shields in Legio XX that are painted with latex, my own included! I have chosen not to require that all of those be replaced or repainted. When I get a chance (and the money) to make a new shield, it will be more accurate. That's how we do things, generally, though there are items which we have removed from use outright. The idea is to keep learning, and keep improving.

Yes, Sno-Seal is a compromise, but from what I understand it is simply a mix of bees wax and an emulsifier. Just a little easier to use by this burned-out old reenactor. Actual bees wax is available and would be considered "better", accuracy-wise. The whole argument of "You don't use hand-made wrought iron tools so why worry about an aluminum helmet" has never made sense to me. Be as accurate as you can, with the focus on the resulting item being as visually authentic as possible. It should look and feel as much like the real thing as possible to anyone who picks it up. When visitors start carrying molecular analysis equipment with them on a regular basis, we'll have to be more careful about the alloys in our armor and weapons. But yes, the public CAN spot exposed plywood on a shield, I've seen it happen more than once.

Saul, I'm a little curious about the car wax thing--my armor is a good 15 years old, now, and doesn't rust if I give it a wipe with an oily rag. Is car wax noticeably better than that?

Anyway, hope to see you at the next workshop!

Matthew

[Magnus]

Dave and Marsh, you guys are my new heroes. I'd like to add that to me the overall impression is what is important, not whether or not the bone grip on your gladius is actually plastic and not ivory. Unless it's something glaring...who cares.

I also like the idea that there really, really IS more to life than roman reenacting...lol. That link you posted Marsh to the "rant" should be required reading before joining a reenactment group or joining RAT. lol

Matt Amt said:

" After you see a few shields done with different paints, you CAN tell the difference easily, even from some distance. The color and finish are simply not the same. They even wear and tear differently."

But who can tell the difference? And if so, would joe shmoe know which is correct? I think this harkens back to what was said by Dave or Marsh (or was it Jim?) about what we know about our own gear, and what is percieved by everyone else.

[SOCL]

Well, luckily, I was leaning towards milk paint from the start anyhow. I was mostly curious to see the opinions and reviews of those who use acrylic. Plus, I have a pair of friends who live in Florida who are just as poor-broke as me and wanted to get some info about acrylic, so I figured, "What the hey? I'll ask!"

Saul, I'm a little curious about the car wax thing--my armor is a good 15 years old, now, and doesn't rust if I give it a wipe with an oily rag. Is car wax noticeably better than that?

Well, as far as the big, smooth pieces of metal go (helmets and segmentatae), it works like a charm! That's not to say it works better than oil, but it certainly doesn't leave a residue or leave your tunica black and stained. The greatest part, though, is when it starts to rain or drizzle: watching everyone else running for cover, then looking down at the seg and watching the water bead and roll off! Indeed, it's as heart-warming as watching baby ducks swimming in a pond...I guess.

The issue I had with oiling, for instance, my helmet was that I would have to do it every month or so, but with the car wax, I've so far only had to wax my helmet twice--about once every three months, or so, and that's really dependent on usage. From November to March I rarely get a chance to reenact and store the stuff away, and no problems yet! Out of thought and mind during the "reenacting vacation"!

But who can tell the difference? And if so, would joe shmoe know which is correct? I think this harkens back to what was said by Dave or Marsh (or was it Jim?) about what we know about our own gear, and what is percieved by everyone else.

I think Matthew's right, though, you can tell the difference. Looking back at the recent Roman Days pictures, there is a noticeable difference between acrylic and milk paint. That's not to say that the average fellow on the street will tell the difference, but odds are he doesn't care--it's the fellow who cares that matters! Plus, when the average fellow finds it, it just ups the "WOO YAY!" on the experience.

[Marcus Mummius]

Matthew Amt wrote:

The whole argument of "You don't use hand-made wrought iron tools so why worry about an aluminum helmet" has never made sense to me. Be as accurate as you can, with the focus on the resulting item being as visually authentic as possible. It should look and feel as much like the real thing as possible to anyone who picks it up.

This is what I wanted to say when I said people were drawing things out of their perspective. But you said it much better, Matt.

Magnus wrote:

But who can tell the difference? And if so, would joe shmoe know which is correct? I think this harkens back to what was said by Dave or Marsh (or was it Jim?) about what we know about our own gear, and what is percieved by everyone else.

This is the same discussion as the madder dyed horsehair crest all over again :lol:

I'll answer you the same way as I did then. Some groups would like to educate the public. When the public sees casein painted shields a few times they will come to recognise it and be able to spot the difference between modern paint and older techniques. If you don't bother they will indeed never spot the difference.

No need to discuss this any further as it clearly boils down to personal preferences and different group philosophies. My group consists out of a lot of archaeologists, archaeological conservationists and the odd historian and these people take pride in trying to give the public a more accurate view of the matter that interests us so much, both professionaly and as a hobby.

But I fully understand some people just wanna have fun without sacrificing the better part of their sanity :wink:

Vale,

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

Anyways, coulda saved myself a lot of hot air because any new shield built for Legio XX use can NOT be painted with acrylic or latex paint. Casein or wax encaustic are your current choices. That's just where we draw the line.

Matt, is your scutum made properly of strips of laminated wood or is it simply made of shaped luan?" I don't remember reading that you were doing this... but if you have kudos to you.

Yes, we DO still have shields in Legio XX that are painted with latex, my own included! I have chosen not to require that all of those be replaced or repainted. When I get a chance (and the money) to make a new shield, it will be more accurate. That's how we do things, generally, though there are items which we have removed from use outright. The idea is to keep learning, and keep improving.

AHA! When are YOU replacing YOUR shield? It's nice to have anally-perfect stuff, but the paint, well, I dunno. Not that many skewl kids care much about whether you use casein or latex. Really! Why not just ensure it looks okay, vs. ordering smoething you're not sure of. And if we're all going to be authentic, shouldn't we only do a unit who's shield device is something we're sure of for that unit... hmmmm, sounds like someone familiar.

[SOCL]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! I'm not a moderator or anything, but I certainly never meant for this discussion to become so...heated. I think it really comes down to individual personal preferences and the requirements of individual units. I believe that each unit should have its own standard for members because it keeps a certain level of discipline and authenticity important to the cohesion of an inherently debatable era of reenacting. Personally, I like the standards Legio XX sets because it sets a standard, but it certainly doesn't make me or any other new members I've met feel alienated. Perhaps we have a lot of hard work ahead, but I personally know that if I will regret it if I don't do it the best way possible from the very first time around (plus, I hate having to do things twice!).

[Tarbicus]

Of course, there's always tempera

[M. Demetrius]

Jim, Jim, tempera won't work. It runs when we drip drool on the scutum. It's not treacle resistant.

[SOCL]

[quote="Tarbicus":23ilyof4]Of course, there's always tempera ?

[richsc]

Tempera or "egg tempera" is a type of paint made by mixing powered pigments with egg yolks. Tempera pigments usually came from natural sources such as minerals, wood, plants or clay. Because tempera dried right away, artists had to apply it quickly with small brushstrokes. Rapid drying also made it difficult to change or correct the painting later.

When I think of tempera it's always as grade school poster paint, which is not traditional tempera. I don't know anyone who's used egg tempera.

TRYING to get back on track. I have a latex shield too (my first, which Matt made) and have been pondering sanding the surface down to see if milk paint will stick to it.

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

I'm thinking of using imron... very tough.

[marsvigilia]

I used milk paint, and only recently coated it with beeswax. Laziness delayed the beeswaxing. A few observations.

Milk paint gave me a very flat look. Much flatter than any modern paint I've seen. I had some difficulty with the red paint giving inconsistent results. I'm not sure why. Perhaps it was the leather I used, or perhaps the paint brand "Real Milk Paint" http://www.realmilkpaint.com/ .


I did get some water spots. Not too bad. But a few.

Once coated with beeswax, the water spots completely disappeared. So you could alway do the cassein and hold off on beeswaxing it. The look after waxing is completely different. It's glossy and lustrous. Beautiful.

Also the inconsistency problem I had with the red paint looks much better after waxing. Gives it a look of depth as opposed to just looking sloppy.

Rather than heating the wax with either an open flame or a hot pad I choose to do something completely different. I kept it in a pan and just heated it by blowing the heat gun on it. Not enough to melt it all but enough for what I needed. As long as some of the wax is unmelted, you can be sure that the temperature hasn't gotten too high.

I am sure that accidents with wax can happen. But I suspect that the fear of overheated spontaneous combustion may be a bit over-rated. Remember unlike explosives, wax needs oxygen to burn. Therefore it only burns at the surface. If it were to catch fire, putting a lid on it, should put a lid on it.

I tried a little experiment. I took a small dish of beeswax and tried to light it with a mapp torch (like propane but ore intense.) . I eventually succeeded, but it wasn't easy. Once lit, the surface burned cheerily but not terribly dangerously, until all the wax was consumed. It reminded me of those Hollywood scenes with large flaming dishes of whatever. Now as a note of caution, the dish I used had a 3 inch diameter. A larger diameter dish would probably send flames higher as there would be a larger surface area burning and more heat.

[M. Demetrius]

Tony, does your wife know you were doing this wax burning ritual? Shall I tell her?