Battle of Cunaxa Illustration

[Dan Diffendale]

But compare with what Plutarch says in his Life of Artaxerxes:
Quote:
(In the meantime, some wretched, poverty-stricken Caunians, who in some pitiful employment as camp followers had accompanied the king's army, by chance joined these attendants of Cyrus, supposing them to be of their own party. But when, after a while, they made out that their coats over their breastplates were red, whereas all the king's people wore white ones, they knew that they were enemies.

This makes it more likely that what Xenophon saw and described was indeed Tissaphernes' men wearing white, whether white cuirasses or white tunics over them.

Unless Plutarch was just copying Xenophon? I'm no Plutarchan; what were his sources?

[Duncan Head]

But compare with what Plutarch says in his Life of Artaxerxes:

But when, after a while, they made out that their coats over their breastplates were red, whereas all the king's people wore white ones, they knew that they were enemies.

Unless Plutarch was just copying Xenophon? I'm no Plutarchan; what were his sources?

This particular extract comes from Plutarch's retailing of Ktesias' account of Cyrus' death. Ktesias was Artaxerxes' doctor and was present at the battle.

But as to the death of Cyrus, since Xenophon, as being himself no eyewitness of it, has stated it simply and in few words, it may not be amiss perhaps to run over on the one hand what Dinon, and on the other, what Ctesias has said of it.

(From the Dryden translation which is at http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/artaxerx.html and in several other places on the net. Don't have the Greek to hand.)

[PMBardunias]

the 19th-century drawing Laran reproduces did not appear to be accurate, including the two-headed spear, the shield-blazon, and the construction of the armour.

Duncan,

When I first saw that drawing I wondered if Laran had misinterpreted two spears being held together. Do you know if that is what is shown on the extant piece?

[Laran]

I wondered if Laran had misinterpreted two spears being held together.

Well, this is in no way my interpretation. I just quoted Nick Sekunda. He, in his turn, refered to Charles Texier, the author of this color drawing who (as Sekunda believes) might have made a careful observation of it.

[PMBardunias]

Laran,

oops, I named you by mistake. I meant the originator of the drawing. My apologies.

[Duncan Head]

When I first saw that drawing I wondered if Laran had misinterpreted two spears being held together. Do you know if that is what is shown on the extant piece?

As Laran's said, if there is a misinterpretation, it's Teixier's not his!

The article I'm referring to is Adrian Nayler, "Lost and Found in Anatolia", Slingshot 201 (January 1999) 28-29. There's a drawing based on Adrian's photo of the stele supplied to the Editor, discussion and reconstructon. Adrian says:

"If we accept that the relief now in Konya is that illustrated I have to say that Teixier's plate gives the impresson that it is much better preserved than it is in reality. Furthermore, he appears to have 'imaginatively reconstructed' the relief, garnishing it with more detail than the actual carving allows. In some respects his depiction is just plain wrong."

In particular Adrian suggests:

- There are two spears carried side by side, not a two-headed spear! They have butt-spikes or secondary blades, like the Lykian spears in the earlier Karaburun II paintings.

- The helmet is too badly damaged to say much about its shape, though the crest is accurate.

- The cuirass has a zigzag pattern that may represent scales or quilting.

- The shield does not have a central ketos sea-monster, but a device of a roundel surrounded by three crescents.

- The tassel that Teixier puts on the hilt of the sword may be the lower corner of the man's cloak.

[Laran]

Never mind, Paul :wink: By the way, if this stele is really not lost, then if I have a chance to go to Konya anytime soon, I will certainly try to find and photograph it.

[Sean Manning]

Hi Duncan,

It’s a great pleasure to meet you.

Do you have any plans to get your Achaemenid Persia book back in print? If not, and if you have any sort of bibliography of sources on Persian warfare handy, I’d be interested in it. I’ve been slowly locating things cited in Sekunda’s Osprey and Olmstead.

(A slight side-note Kai: if you look at the Greek of Xenophon's description of the enemy line at Cunaxa, you will find that Tissaphernes' men wore "bright body-armour" rather than the common English translation of "white cuirasses." The adjective can mean "white", but "bright" or "shining" is the core meaning and would make just as much sense in context).

But compare with what Plutarch says in his Life of Artaxerxes:

(In the meantime, some wretched, poverty-stricken Caunians, who in some pitiful employment as camp followers had accompanied the king's army, by chance joined these attendants of Cyrus, supposing them to be of their own party. But when, after a while, they made out that their coats over their breastplates were red, whereas all the king's people wore white ones, they knew that they were enemies.

This makes it more likely that what Xenophon saw and described was indeed Tissaphernes' men wearing white, whether white cuirasses or white tunics over them.

Well, Xenophon does say “armourâ€

[Duncan Head]

Do you have any plans to get your Achaemenid Persia book back in print? If not, and if you have any sort of bibliography of sources on Persian warfare handy, I’d be interested in it.

No plans at the moment, though it might be a subject to visit again in the future. And I don't think I have a bibliography to hand more up to date than the one in the Montvert Persian book. There's been quite a bit done since then - Nigel Tallis' chapter on warfare in the British Museum Forgotten Empire catalogue would be a good place to start, and the bibliography in the catalogue is pretty impressive. ISBN 978-0-7141-1157-5

Sean Manning\\n[quote]Well, Xenophon does say “armourâ€

[Sean Manning]

Do you have any plans to get your Achaemenid Persia book back in print? If not, and if you have any sort of bibliography of sources on Persian warfare handy, I’d be interested in it.

No plans at the moment, though it might be a subject to visit again in the future. And I don't think I have a bibliography to hand more up to date than the one in the Montvert Persian book. There's been quite a bit done since then - Nigel Tallis' chapter on warfare in the British Museum Forgotten Empire catalogue would be a good place to start, and the bibliography in the catalogue is pretty impressive. ISBN 978-0-7141-1157-5

I have a copy of Forgotten Empires. I was actually sort of unimpressed by that chapter, although it wasn't bad, and the footnotes were basic. Yeah, the bibliography to that book is impressive, but not organized so hard to use (although I did find one article on the Assyrian army). Thanks for your help, though.

Duncan Head\\n[quote]Sean Manning\\n[quote]Well, Xenophon does say “armourâ€

[Duncan Head]

Contributors to this thread have listed some superb Achaemenid military artwork, but one I haven't seen mentioned yet (apologies if I've missed it) is the Miho Museum pectoral. See http://miho.jp/booth/html/artcon/00000465e.htm and click on the photo for some more pictures including close-ups of the battle-scene on the pendant section. It's another scene of Persians in combat with Skyths or Saka, which helps to bring home how important the northern frontiers must have seemed to the Empire.

[artaxerxes]

v interesting to read a string about Cunaxa, it's a topic I've taken a special interest in over the past year or so (I have a few thousand words down for either a long article or book).

I've soaked up all the sources easily available to me and I'm now at the point of cajoling academic friends to use their university borrowing and research funds to hunt down elusive articles and the odd thesis for me.

Looking forward to the Xmas break to donate some more time to the project.

Regards

David Brown

[PMBardunias]

Great link Duncan. If anyone's into Assyria, there is an excellent piece in the archives section from an exhibit on loan from Vienna.

[Mithras]

Thanks Duncan...there's that very high backed neck, as seen on the Can sarcophagus again ...

Like Sean, I'm currently building up a list of good military resources for the Achaemenids. Or trying to! It's hard work!

Contributors to this thread have listed some superb Achaemenid military artwork, but one I haven't seen mentioned yet (apologies if I've missed it) is the Miho Museum pectoral. See http://miho.jp/booth/html/artcon/00000465e.htm and click on the photo for some more pictures including close-ups of the battle-scene on the pendant section. It's another scene of Persians in combat with Skyths or Saka, which helps to bring home how important the northern frontiers must have seemed to the Empire.

[hoplite14gr]

On the issue of terms.
LEYKOS pronounced lefkos both in ancient and modern Greek means white.

Shiny is LAMPON or sparkling is LAMPYRIZON.

So the texts speak of "white armor"

Kind regards

Kind regards