Battle of Cunaxa Illustration

[Vishtaspa]

Hello;

Returning to the white cuirass, "leukos" can be translated perfectly as "bright", in fact, etymologically it means "bright, light" (from the indoeuropean root *leuk- , the same as in latin Lux!) and with this meaning is used sometimes by Homer and the play-writers. "White" , as an undefinite colour (also gray, pale) is a secondary sense, but well attested in Homer too.

But Xenophon's reference (Anab I, 8,9)is a little strange, he uses:
"kai esan hippes men leukothorakes".(and there were cavalrymen who wore "white" cuirasses)

"leukothorax"; this compound is a "hapax legomenon" (a word found only once in the whole corpus of ancient greek literature) and I am pretty sure than with this "neologism" Xenophon wants to refer to a very concrete thing. If they were merely briliant metal cuirasses, Xenophon sholuld't need this new compound, there are other more common ways to describe shiny armour, as Stefanos said.
And if were linen cuirasses, why not describe them as "eikhon thorakas linous" as he wrote in Anab IV 7, 15?

It can be something special, referred to a distinctive tipe of armour painted in white, or covered in white, what apperars to say Plutarch (epithorakidia) in contrast with purple cover garments of Cyrus' army. In that sense, Xenophon migth have write also "*phoinikothorax" in the case of the other army's distinctive colour.

by the way, there is a very interesting achaemenid seal (shown in Forgotten Empire and also cited in Duncan Head's book) that shows a figth between a persian and a greek; the persian in median robe, wearing "linothorax" with pteryges, tiara and an axe attached to his back. The hoplite wears "attic" crested helmet, hoplon and two spears. Both are infantrymen, but it is an interesting seal abuot pesian (very close to the persians in greek vase paintings) and a greek in persian's eyes.

regards

[Artabanos]

Very Interesting material, the Russians seem to view the Persians "heavier" than their colleges in the "western world".

@Vishtaspa

Is there any way you could post a picture of that seal? With some luck I might be able to reconstruct a Persian "Linothorax", for my heavy infantryman. The position of the battleaxe would be another new detail. I would be very grateful.


Regards.
[/quote]

[hoplite14gr]

Shiny is "LAMPON". LEYKOS is white.
So leykos for shiny is a No-No.

Hyschios LEYKASPIS = white shielded implying the Argives

Kind regards

[MeinPanzer]

Very Interesting material, the Russians seem to view the Persians "heavier" than their colleges in the "western world".

Gorelik's speciality is in ancient armour, and so it's no surprise that he would choose to reconstruct the heaviest soldiers of the Persian army. In this case I think he has simply chosen not to reconstruct the lightest elements of the army because he is most interested in the armour.

Is there any way you could post a picture of that seal? With some luck I might be able to reconstruct a Persian "Linothorax", for my heavy infantryman. The position of the battleaxe would be another new detail. I would be very grateful.

The positioning of the sagaris, if it even is a sagaris at all, is problematic. The warrior is seen in profile and the top of the sagaris with the axehead is depicted as literally rising out of the back of the man's armoured collar. The depiction is too crude to reveal any details about how it was attached.

[Vishtaspa]

Shiny is "LAMPON". LEYKOS is white.
So leykos for shiny is a No-No.

Hyschios LEYKASPIS = white shielded implying the Argives

Kind regards

Hello Stefanos;
There is linguistic evidence to support the "bright" first sense in ancient greek. As I said, the indoeuropean root (*leuk-) is the same as in Latin Lux-Lucis (light), greek "lukhnos" sanskrit roc-/loc-/ "to shine" and many others.
Homer calls for example leukos to water in Il XXIII 282, "udati leuko" in the sense of "bright or limpid", but the water is't white. Also Homer calls the sun leukos in other passage.
The sense of "white" is also very broad, meaning alsoo "clare, pale..."

But I agree with you respect the "white" meaning in the Xenophon's passage. I think also that in modern greek is always "white", but my knowledge concerns only about ancient greek and comparative linguistics, so I have much to learn from greek native speakers.

Best regards

[Vishtaspa]

Is there any way you could post a picture of that seal? With some luck I might be able to reconstruct a Persian "Linothorax", for my heavy infantryman. The position of the battleaxe would be another new detail. I would be very grateful.

Of course, I will scan the image. As meinpanzer said, is a seal wilth little details and a bit crude, the axe on the back is somethig strage, but it appears to be a sagaris.

[Vishtaspa]

Well, here is the seal. Sorry for the bad photo. In the mould the axe is very clear

[Artabanos]

Thanks! I have seen a similar seal only that the warrior fights with an akinakes and has a somewhat different kind of pteryges.

But I misinterpreted the sagaris as high neckguard, while I'm now convinced that the infantry neck guard was shorter (makes sense as the helmet covers the rest).

The battle axe is indeed in a "scabbard" at the back, most likely to the right part of the neckguard and built into the corslet armour. However in battle it could be difficult to get the axe with one hand I think. Maybe they fought only with the battle axe when they had lost the spear and the shield, probably also two handed.

Now quite some things are clear.

Regards

[Sean Manning]

The first plate's Fig. 1 is a heavy Persian infantryman. The cuirass and helmet are based on interpretations of Persian seals showing heavy cavalrymen and infantrymen. The rest of his appearance is hypothetical reconstruction. His shield is taken from a Persian on the Oxford Brygos cup, but the use of such a shield by Persian heavy infantrymen is hypothetical. Fig. 2 is a late Persian cavalryman is based off of several sources. His helmet is based on an example found in Thebes in Egypt, the gorget is based on the Derveni gorget, and the cuirass itself is just hypothetical, as is the fact that he shows one arm covered with cheir and the other with scale-covered pteruges.

What's that? There is plenty of evidence that many Persian troops at one time used large sticks-and-leather shields, including Greek writers who mention imperial troops with gerra (“wicker shieldsâ€

[Vishtaspa]

Persian word for one seems to have been spara.

I'm sure that this is correct. I have researched this word, and although there is no references in Old persian corpus we have in Hesychios "sparabarai: oi gerrophoroi".
I have checked the iranian material, and in fact in Pahlavi (middle sassanid Persian) we have "spar" (shield) and in New persian, "sipar". So I'm pretty sure that old persian *spara means "shield" in general.

"-bara" is iranian for "one who bears" and is etymologically emparented wuth greek "-phoros" and latin "-fer" (as in signifer).

[Dan Diffendale]

Shiny is "LAMPON". LEYKOS is white.
So leykos for shiny is a No-No.

I think Inyigo has already handled this one pretty well, but if you're interested the LSJ has of course a list of occurences of leukos in its primary meaning of "light, bright, clear":
http://tinyurl.com/2elrqb

[MeinPanzer]

Sean Manning\\n[quote]What's that? There is plenty of evidence that many Persian troops at one time used large sticks-and-leather shields, including Greek writers who mention imperial troops with gerra (“wicker shieldsâ€

[Sean Manning]

MeinPanzer\\n[quote]Sean Manning\\n[quote]What's that? There is plenty of evidence that many Persian troops at one time used large sticks-and-leather shields, including Greek writers who mention imperial troops with gerra (“wicker shieldsâ€

[MeinPanzer]

OK. Herodotus does talk about units of Persians in heavy armour, though, and in his account Persian infantry mostly use the gerra. This is probably an over-simplification though!

I was just commenting that Gorelik's reconstruction is hypothetical. I agree that Persian heavy infantrymen most likely did carry gerrha, but we don't have any direct evidence for it.

[gie]

Does anyone knows from which books the next 3 plates come?
They show persian and saka cataphracts from some russian book.s

Does anyone know the books? Can someone help me find the source of the plates?
Anyone knows any russian book with persian or saka warriors?

The first and third are definitely from M.V. Gorelik, and I think the third is as well, but I'm not sure.

Based on Gorelik's other stuff, I can try to identify each figure.

The first plate's Fig. 1 is a heavy Persian infantryman. The cuirass and helmet are based on interpretations of Persian seals showing heavy cavalrymen and infantrymen. The rest of his appearance is hypothetical reconstruction. His shield is taken from a Persian on the Oxford Brygos cup, but the use of such a shield by Persian heavy infantrymen is hypothetical. Fig. 2 is a late Persian cavalryman is based off of several sources. His helmet is based on an example found in Thebes in Egypt, the gorget is based on the Derveni gorget, and the cuirass itself is just hypothetical, as is the fact that he shows one arm covered with cheir and the other with scale-covered pteruges. Gorelik illustrates the exact same hypothetical reconstruction of body armour (gorget, cuirass, and cheir) in "Oruzie Drevnego Vostoka" and states that it is based on Xenophon's descriptions, but gives no reason for reconstructing only one cheir-covered arm. The parameridia are based on the examples discussed in this thread. Fig. 3 is an early Saka noble cavalryman. His helmet is based on an example from Samarkand, his shield is based on the Pazyryk examples, and his greaves are based on those found in a Pazyryk burial. The cuirass is just a "generic" scaled cuirass, the horse furniture is based on Pazyryk finds, and everything else is hypothetical.

The third plate has a mix of figures. Fig. 1 is, again, a heavy Persian cavalryman, and the helmet is the same as Plate 1's Fig. 2, while the armour is, again, hypothetical, as is the peytral and parameridia of the man's mount. Fig. 2 is, I think, a late Persian cavalryman, based on a figure from the Issus mosaic but reconstructed with a hypothetical shield. Fig. 3 is just a Persian light cavalryman, and all the details are, I'm fairly sure, hypothetical. Fig. 4 is, I think, another late Persian cavalryman, but I can't identify the sources he used for them. Fig. 5 is based on a figure from a Southern Italian vase which Gorelik has I think quite wrongly reconstructed as wearing a full-body suit of scale armour. Rather the figure wears the regular "jumpsuit" that Persian troops are depicted wearing on Greek vases only with a pattern that resembles scaled armour. The figure carries two spears and a sword, but Gorelik has reconstructed him here with a hypothetical shield. It should also be noted that this figure wears quite fantastical headgear and is most likely a fantasy representation of an Asian. Fig. 6 is, I think, a Bactrian, and is fairly straightforward. Fig. 7 is a Saka cataphract, and is based on a few sources. The helmet is the same one given to Plate 1's Fig. 3. The armour is based on several sources showing heavy Saka cataphracts and in particular the armoured plates found in Chirik-Rabat.The horse armour is based on the terracotta fragment from Chumbuz-Tepe.

Tank for your post in Battle of Cunaxa Illustration Thread.
Can you give me more details about “Oruzie Drevnego Vostokaâ€