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Legion organization and Organization Charts
#1
Ave Civitas,

I have a question of how legions were organized after Diocletian and Constantine.

I know that earlier legions had 10 cohorts
I know that the Number One Cohort was larger than the other nine
I know that the more senior the centurion, the lower the denomination of cohort was that he commanded.

What I don't know is;

Questions One:
Once the legions were subdivided (I think that is what they did to create more units without recruiting for them) and a single legion broken down into multiple legions;

1. Were these smaller (1,000 men or less) legions organized the same way as the earlier legions (with 10 cohorts) each being a fraction of the size of the earlier ones.

2. Were the sizes of the cohorts kept the same but having fewer cohorts in each legion?

3. Some units in the ND are identified as just Cohorts. Where did these cohorts come from (I have a suspicion that they were the #1 cohort of an earlier legion, separated to operate independently)

Question Two:
In the ND it identifies a single legion as being based in several locations.

1. Were these the separate cohorts from a legion?
2. If they were, how large would a New Cohort be?
3. Were they still under the command of a single Legatus?

Thanks a lot. You guys are great.

Lothia.
AKA Tom Chelmowski

Historiae Eruditere (if that is proper Latin)
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#2
a legion during Diocletian and Constantine is not the same legion during Trajan.

some units in the ND started as vexillations which never returned to their parent legions. IIRC the organisation in the later empire is very vague. But perhaps some of the later empire experts can tell more about this.
gr,
Jeroen Pelgrom
Rules for Posting

I would rather have fire storms of atmospheres than this cruel descent from a thousand years of dreams.
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#3
Quote:1.1. Were these smaller (1,000 men or less) legions organized the same way as the earlier legions (with 10 cohorts) each being a fraction of the size of the earlier ones.
Probably not, as they started life as Diocletianic vexillations.

Quote:1.2. Were the sizes of the cohorts kept the same but having fewer cohorts in each legion?
Probably. (See above.)

Quote:1.3. Some units in the ND are identified as just Cohorts. Where did these cohorts come from (I have a suspicion that they were the #1 cohort of an earlier legion, separated to operate independently)
The cohorts of the ND are the old-style auxiliary cohorts. Nothing to do with legions.

Quote:2.1. Were these (single legion based in several locations) the separate cohorts from a legion?
Probably.

Quote:2.2. If they were, how large would a New Cohort be?
Probably the same size as an old cohort.

Quote:2.3. Were they still under the command of a single Legatus?
No. The late imperial legions were now under the command of praefecti. You can see this from the ND listings.

Quote:Perhaps some of the later empire experts can tell more about this.
I'll second that. Maybe someone who's actually read Hoffmann (rather than flicking through, like me!). (Robert?? Big Grin )
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#4
Ave Civitas,

Thank you for your replies, they were helpful.

However, I have a couple questions.

Who is Hoffmann and what did he write?

The IIRC? What is that? I did a search for acronyms the found many, none of which seem to make sence in a context related to the Roman Empire.

Thanks again.

Do you know of any books that might help me in untying this knot?

Lothia.
AKA Tom Chelmowski

Historiae Eruditere (if that is proper Latin)
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#5
Quote:The IIRC? What is that? I did a search for acronyms the found many, none of which seem to make sence in a context related to the Roman Empire.

IIRC means "if I remember(/recall?) correctly"
RESTITVTOR LIBERTATIS ET ROMANAE RELIGIONIS

DEDITICIVS MINERVAE ET MVSARVM

[Micha F.]
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#6
Quote:
Lothia:34fjngkv Wrote:1.1. Were these smaller (1,000 men or less) legions organized the same way as the earlier legions (with 10 cohorts) each being a fraction of the size of the earlier ones.
Probably not, as they started life as Diocletianic vexillations.
For one, organisation was different, because legionary cohorts no longer contained a detachment of cavalry. And although the wortd 'cohort' is mentioned a few times, there is no evidence that after the first decade of th 4th c., subunits of a legion were called 'cohorts' anymore.

Strength of these legionary subunits is not clear. There are indications of units being 300 to 500 men strong, with subunits being 100 men strong. A late legion therefore might be 1000 strong, with 10 cohorts of 100 men each. But smaller sizes are also known, 50 or 60, allowing for smaller legions still containing 10 smaller cohorts. Ranks such centurions continue to exist (as do ranks like 'centenarii'), although it's never clear how many men these officers exactly commanded.

The contubernium of 8 men continued to be the smallest unit in the army. The word 'familia' is sometimes used there.

No clear answer is possible.

Quote:
Lothia:34fjngkv Wrote:1.2. Were the sizes of the cohorts kept the same but having fewer cohorts in each legion?
Probably. (See above.)
Indeed. Personally, I think that there was no 'grand uniformity' in the Roman army, and sizes could change.

Quote:
Lothia:34fjngkv Wrote:1.3. Some units in the ND are identified as just Cohorts. Where did these cohorts come from (I have a suspicion that they were the #1 cohort of an earlier legion, separated to operate independently)
The cohorts of the ND are the old-style auxiliary cohorts. Nothing to do with legions.
Yes and no, they are indeed sometimes the older auxiliary cohorts, but some are also new ones. They are still not a subdivision of a legionary unit, and they are never attached to a field army.

Quote:
Lothia:34fjngkv Wrote:2.1. Were these (single legion based in several locations) the separate cohorts from a legion?
Probably.
Never (see above). All are independent units, as the auxiliary cohorts were before them.

Quote:
Lothia:34fjngkv Wrote:2.2. If they were, how large would a New Cohort be?
Probably the same size as an old cohort.
Probably the size of a new legionary subunit. There seems to be evidence from forts along Hadrian's Wall that the rooms in which the men of such cohorts slept, changed. These are the so-called 'chalets'.
The changes are still not clear, but under the new situation there were fewer but larger rooms. So either there were now:
1) fewer men who (possibly) lived with their families inside the fort, or maybe there were
2) less men in larger rooms, or there could (theoretically) be
3) the same number of men as in the old days, but more men in one (larger) room. My personal favorite is option 1.

Quote:
Lothia:34fjngkv Wrote:2.3. Were they still under the command of a single Legatus?
No. The late imperial legions were now under the command of praefecti. You can see this from the ND listings.
Indeed.

Quote:
pelgr003:34fjngkv Wrote:Perhaps some of the later empire experts can tell more about this.
I'll second that. Maybe someone who's actually read Hoffmann (rather than flicking through, like me!). (Robert?? Big Grin )
By all means, but I rather use Nicasie for this instead of Hoffmann.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#7
Quote:Do you know of any books that might help me in untying this knot?
Hoffmann, Dietrich (1969): Das Spätrömische Bewegungsheer und die Notitia Dignitatum, 2 vols., Epigraphische Studien 1, (Rheinisches Landesmuseum Bonn).

Nicasie, Martijn (1997): Twilight of Empire, the Roman Army from the Reign of Diocletian until the Battle of Adrianople, (Thesis Publishers Amsterdam).
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#8
Quote:For one, organisation was different, because legionary cohorts no longer contained a detachment of cavalry.
Interesting point, Robert. I think you are referring to the fact that, during the Principate, the legionary cavalry were carried on the books of the individual centuries. So an imperial legionary cohort could've been up to 120 men short (... in the unlikely event of the entire cavalry contingent being drawn from its 6 centuries!).
Thanks -- I hadn't thought of this before. Smile

Quote:
D B Campbell:1yxvsvs6 Wrote:The cohorts of the ND are the old-style auxiliary cohorts. Nothing to do with legions.
Yes and no, they are indeed sometimes the older auxiliary cohorts, but some are also new ones.
Really? I thought the new infantry units were simply called auxilia.

Quote:
D B Campbell:1yxvsvs6 Wrote:
Lothia:1yxvsvs6 Wrote:2.1. Were these (single legion based in several locations) the separate cohorts from a legion?
Probably.
Never (see above). All are independent units, as the auxiliary cohorts were before them.
I think Tom is referring to the repeated references, for example, to legio V Macedonica along the Danube. These surely all began life as detachments of a single legion, perhaps numbering one or two cohorts each. Wouldn't you agree, Robert?

Quote:
D B Campbell:1yxvsvs6 Wrote:
Lothia:1yxvsvs6 Wrote:2.2. If they were, how large would a New Cohort be?
Probably the same size as an old cohort.
Probably the size of a new legionary subunit. There seems to be evidence from forts along Hadrian's Wall that the rooms in which the men of such cohorts slept, changed. These are the so-called 'chalets'.
The changes are still not clear, but under the new situation there were fewer but larger rooms. So either there were now:
1) fewer men who (possibly) lived with their families inside the fort, or maybe there were
2) less men in larger rooms, or there could (theoretically) be
3) the same number of men as in the old days, but more men in one (larger) room. My personal favorite is option 1.
The chalet barracks have now been disproved by Nick Hodgson and Paul Bidwell. They seem to be simply old-style barracks split into smaller buildings. The individual rooms are roughly the same size as before, suggesting they accommodated the same number of men as in the old days. But there are fewer rooms, perhaps suggesting that a century had got smaller.

Quote:By all means, but I rather use Nicasie for this instead of Hoffmann.
I've never seen Nicasie's book. Is it good? Are there any reviews you'd recommend, Robert?
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#9
Ave Civitas,

Thank you guys. You are amazing wells of knowledge.

DB Campbell wrote:

Quote:I think Tom is referring to the repeated references, for example, to legio V Macedonica along the Danube.

That is exactly right.

I was writing about entries such as:

Tribunus cohortis (5 tribunes at separate locations)
and
Equites promoti (no officer given, split over 4 separate locations)


But what you guys are telling me is that although they are split into multiple locations there was no central common immediate commander for the five tribunes nor was there a common immediate commander for the Cavalry in their four separate locations. Their commander would have been the Duke of first Pannonia and Noricum [along the Danube?] (Dux Pannoniae primae et Norici ripensis)

You guys probably already know I am writing a novel that takes place in the Later Roman Empire and it is important to me to be as accurate as possible.

I really do appreciate your help.

Vortigern Studies wrote:
Nicasie, Martijn (1997): Twilight of Empire, the Roman Army from the Reign of Diocletian until the Battle of Adrianople, (Thesis Publishers Amsterdam).

Thanks. That looks like it will be a great reference. I will see if I can find it somewhere

Thanks again,

Lothia
AKA Tom Chelmowski

Historiae Eruditere (if that is proper Latin)
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#10
One of the basic changes in accomodation in barracks is introduction of hypocaustum heating, recorded for example in Carnuntum.
Stefan Pop-Lazic
by a stuff demand, and personal hesitation
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#11
Hypocaust. That is interesting.

Stefan Pop-Lazic wrote:
One of the basic changes in accomodation in barracks is introduction of hypocaustum heating, recorded for example in Carnuntum.

Do you know about when these modifications were made along the Limes Brittania?

Thanks.

Lothia
AKA Tom Chelmowski

Historiae Eruditere (if that is proper Latin)
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#12
Quote:Do you know about when these modifications were made along the Limes Brittania?

You'll find a discussion of the late barrack blocks on the British frontier in this previous thread.

Basically, the reduced barracks at Vindolanda and South Shields are mid-third century, Tom.
(No under-floor heating here though, Stefan! Smile )
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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