Helmets

[hoplite14gr]

In Perseus Project there is pottery showing Cassandra kneeling infron of a statue of Athena with a traverse crest.

The period that the statue is dated contains the "30 year peace" period.
So it could have been made by an Athenian artist in honor of the Chalkioikos Athena of Sparta.

Laudes Bonnie.

Kimd regards

[Et tu brute]

Paul, I think she meant her name is Bonnie :wink:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I don't see why we should always connect the transverse crest with the Spartans.What primary source is saying that Spartans ever wore the transverse crest?I'm not saying they didn't use it,but no more or less than other cities.Nor is it by chance,I think,that this crest apears in art in some specific late archaic-early classical period.Much more frequently at least.
This pic is a tetraobolos from Thrace.I do't know date.

[hoplite14gr]

The conservative approach for the traverse crest is Spartans amd Tegeans who copied them.
Most other city states woluld have other elaborate crests for the officers id we trust pottery.
I consider the traverse crest for others but I need more data to back it up.
The thracian coin if it is 5th century B.C. it might well relate to Brasidas campaign.

Kimd regards

[Zenodoros]

Stefanos, if both the Athene bust and the Thracian coin relate to the Spartans (as you assume that they may), do you think it may mean the Corinthian helmet still appeared in Spartan armies, or would the images simply be idealized portrayals? I assume the latter, but you never know.

Paul, I think she meant her name is Bonnie Wink

Indeed, note the change of my signature. :lol: No worries, though.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I'm not Stefanos but I think the Athena bust is based in statues that always wore corinthian helmet-even in roman times,while the coin is probably from middle or late 5th century,a time when corinthian helmets were vastly in use.In fact,the bust is from between 440-375 bc.If it's near 440,it's more likely that the corinthian is not just idealised depiction.
Has anybody noticed that this corinthian looks much like Apulocorinthian?
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Bonnie, there is a tendency to depict lesser armored hoplites in late 5th middle 4th century B.C. Artists in books do it to depict a situation that was.
Though the majority of any 4th century army would not wear corinthians and heavy armor but you cannot rule out the fact that the richer hoplites and probably officers would carry equipment handed down from ancestors.
In other words an 100% "pilos wearing unarmored army" would be ahistorical

Yannis, you are correct that the helmet might not be idealised depiction as for the coin I need to check for its date.

Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

Apologies, Bonnie! :oops: :oops: Wherever did I get the idea your name was Barbara ?? :oops:
And of course many assumptions are made about these things, starting with e.g. the statuette with the long hair and transverse crest 'must' be Spartan .....t'aint necessarily so !!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yes...and the fact that it's wearing a "cloak" that is actually a himation,nothing to do with the spartan cloak.And the fact that it's a bronze statuette,a characteristic,if I can say so,of laconian art,but not necessarily only laconian...
However,this is how I do imagine a Spartan homoios of the great period of Sparta,and I'd be dissapointed if somebody could prove he's not a Spartan.
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

They cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt the he is or he is not a Spartan. The majority of evidence and indications point to Sparta.

Travesre crest is not only Sparta but there are not enough indications or evidence for other armies

Its the same where we belive that all hoplites of the late Peloponessian War were exclusively wearing pilos helmet and no armor.

Kind regards

[Zenodoros]

Thanks guys. As I thought the Corinthian may just be on the bust to make her seem more noble and traditional, though we won't jump to a conclusion of course.

I do think it's unrealistic to believe that all Spartiates used the pilos helmet in the Peloponnesian Wars - just as I think it is stupid to think they only wore Corinthians in the Persian Wars.

Oh, and no worries Paul.

[Anonymous]

I do think it's unrealistic to believe that all Spartiates used the pilos helmet in the Peloponnesian Wars - just as I think it is stupid to think they only wore Corinthians in the Persian Wars.

Oh, and no worries Paul.

So why do you think they all wore bronze thorakes at Thermopylae? Or have you changed your mind on that one?

[Zenodoros]

Hmm, you don't seem to forget that. Changed my mind on it. I decided that was just too much of a grey area to be certain about anything at all in Spartiate uniform. They probably had pilos helmets at Thermopylai, god forbid!

[PMBardunias]

Just thought I'd upload my avatar pic if full to show the transverse crest. To wax adolescent, are there any who doubt that this is the single "coolest" image from the ancient world?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Do you mean to say,Paul,I should make a tranverse crest when i get my corinthian helmet? :lol: