Roman Use of the Attic Helmet

[Paullus Scipio]

Ruben wrote:-

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that that piece is often ambiguously cited (in books and on this forum) about the Republican Romans as evidence for how Roman officers looked, usually without mentioning that it is simply a panoply for a Rhodian officer. It has no direct relation to the Romans.

....Ruben is quite correct, the link between that staue and Roman Officers is quite tenuous, not direct. Republican Officers are said to have worn 'similar dress to Hellenistic Officers', usually on the basis of the link between Imperial sculptures thus dressed back to the figure in the centre of the Ahenobarbus relief presiding over the 'suovetaurilia' sacrifice, ususally identified as the God Mars, but sometimes called a Tribune, wearing the sash tied in a Hercules knot. The figure's helmet, a little uncertain, is sometimes seen as 'Hellenistic' ( e.g. Connolly) and sometimes Apulo-Corinthian. We don't have any earlier depictions, so by analogy the Rhodian staue ( showing similar(?) helmet cuirass with double layer pteruges etc from the 3rd centuryB.C.) is used to illustrate earlier Roman Officers dress, but as Ruben points out, there is no direct link. (Interestingly, Connolly uses this same panoply as the basis of his reconstruction of a Carthaginian General ( Hannibal).......but all this does is demonstrate how thin our evidence is at all for the 3rd century B.C.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, the third being Attic types, or whatever they wanted made. But I have to agree with you on the Etrusco-Corinthian helmets, this later Cavalry helmet http://www.romancoins.info/Frankfurt-0611.JPG looks like a typical cavalry helmet with decorations and a face above the opening almost as if a play on the older etrusco-corinthian helmets. It just seems to me to have been inspired by the latter type of helmet, and the wearer must have been familiar with them if it is, meaning that it must've been worn still into the period. Or I could be way off.

Crest looks awkward, but interesting helmet. but a real hybrid of styles.

[Celtic505]

Although the panalopy is from Rhodes, That type of helmet I've seen before in Roman sculpture, on part of a relief from the Temple of Fortuna at praeneste that shows the bow of a Roman warship, almost all of the soldiers on the ship have oval shields with attic helmets, except the last one on the right has what appears to be a depiction of the Rhodian panalopy helmet. Also the Ludovisi Sarcophagus (although of later time period) seems to show the same kind of helmet (although it could be italo-corinthian) on the officers (although it also shows scale musculatas and helmets so who knows its accuracy). On the altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus one of the two mail clad legionaries wears this kind of helmet. Along with the corfu pics posted earlier, we know this type of helmet certainly existed, and it is represented in some roman art. Officers had to have worn SOME kind of headgear in the field and IMHO it had to have been different from the rank and file, even if that only difference is a crest.

[Celtic505]

Thanks for your input tarbicus, since I'm working on an officers impression I was originally going to go with the Attic type, but I think I'm going to go now with the Rhodes/Corfu panalopy helmet instead. With the depictions of non-attic types and the autun helmet, surely officers must've worn other types aside from the typical attic type always shown. It seems to me a more hellenistic type helmet would surely suite the tastes of phil-hellene Roman aristocrats. I'm a bout 99% positive on this choice of headgear, but I'd like to hear other peoples opinions as to this as well.

[Antonius Insulae]

Ave!

This is my first post on this forum. I am a very enthusiastic Roman history hobbyist and a latinist.

I'm replying to this over five year old thread, since I have new information about this very interesting subject.

I have also been informed that the attic helmet we see on Trajan's column and on other monumental sculptures, is just an artistic depiction and exactly that kind of helmet has never been found, and thus it was probably never used by Romans.
I'm talking about the exact Roman Attic Helmet with a distinctive vertical plate brow guard, decorated or not, like in these replica helmets:
[attachment=6938]AtticHelmet.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=6939]HR-1140.jpeg[/attachment]

I wanted so very much to find a picture or any information about if these exact kind of helmets were ever used, and I only happened to find out attic helmets which are of Greek type, which Romans did use in the republican era, helmets with the motif of the big brow guard, but not separate one, only a decoration hammered on the forehead of the helmet, like in this replica one:

[attachment=6940]casque_attique_hl144A.jpeg[/attachment]

But then recently, just a few days ago, after losing hope of finding any pictures of real original artefact helmets of this kind, I found two helmets, which are said to be real archaeological finds, in a private collection site called Roman Officer Permanent Collection.
These are the helmets:

The inscriptions and art depictions on this helmet show that it had once belonged to a Praefectus of Auxiliaries or a Tribune of a Legion.
[attachment=6941]Roman-Tribune-Helm-15.jpeg[/attachment]

The inscriptions and art depictions on this helmet show that it had once belonged to a Praefectus Classis or perhaps a Navarchus Princeps.
[attachment=6942]CAV-HELM-47.jpeg[/attachment]

This is a link to the collection site, scroll down just a bit for the helmets:
http://romanofficer.com/PermcolABU081212...tic_helmet

These look very real and valid, but I'm not 100% sure yet, since if these are real archaeological finds, why they are not more known, and why they are not featured on any books depicting Roman helmets? And why are authors and Roman equipment experts saying that the classical depiction of Roman Attic helmet is wrong, have they not seen these helmets? The pictures are taken by David Xavier Kenney in 2006 and 2007.

If anyone has more info of these helmets, or about any other real original archaeological artefact helmets which would have these big brow guards/visors, please let me know.

Valete!
•ANTONIVS•INSVLÆ•

[Robert Vermaat]

But then recently, just a few days ago, after losing hope of finding any pictures of real original artefact helmets of this kind, I found two helmets, which are said to be real archaeological finds, in a private collection site called Roman Officer Permanent Collection.

We have seen and discussed these helmets before. The common opinion of them is that they are fakes, sold over the internet to collectors such as these. There is no information available that ties any of these helmets (or many other objects in that collection) to known excavations, no information that can in any way vouch that they are, indeed, anything bot modern fakes.

[Alexand96]

Ah, yes, that site...I love how all of the artifacts have more or less the exact same patina. Maybe they were all found in the exact same location?? HA!!

[Pointer]

DO you have any other pictures of this: Another in Rome; look at the figure facing to the right of the photo's helmet (note also the soldier in the background's helmet, which bears a great resemblance to the Italic A):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/ ... 05copy.jpg

... And if not can you tell me the name of this piece or it's location so I can find other angles of it? I would greatly appreciate any informaiton about it... Thank you Patrick

[ValentinianVictrix]

Without wanting this thread to degenerate into some king of paranormal discussion group, I think the missing copper question is more linked to the strange artifacts at the bottom of Rock Lake in Wisconsin- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Lake_(Wisconsin) Some researchers claim that the lake was created by Native Americans in order to submerge the mounds and copper smelting facilities there.
It is entirely possible that the Chinese visited the USA long before Columbus arrived as a number of mill stones of the type that the Chinese ships used as anchors hav been found off the coast of California.
Another intriguing account of a possible one-off visit is that in Spanish records of a statue that was found by the Spanish when they were conquering South America. It apparently was of a western looking man wearing a long robe with a form of mitred hat and having a ringleted beard, who was holding a book. The Spanish considered it to be blasmekphous as it apparently looked too much like Jesus and had it destroyed. The natives where it was found told tales of being visited by 'white men in long boats'.
Anyway, thats stuff for others to look at on other forums, lets get back to Attic Helmet discussion.

Many Late Roman artworks and monumental works show even the 'common' infantry wearing Attic style browguard helmets. I'm off to Istanbul in two weeks ime and hope to take as many photographs of the remains of the Column of Theodosius and the Column of Arcadius as I possibly can to see if the pen & ink drawings of those columns correspond to the fragmentary remains.

[Robert Vermaat]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/ ... 05copy.jpg

Link does not work, I get an error..

[Renatus]

I'm off to Istanbul in two weeks ime and hope to take as many photographs of the remains of the Column of Theodosius and the Column of Arcadius as I possibly can to see if the pen & ink drawings of those columns correspond to the fragmentary remains.

Good luck with that. I'll be interested to see what you come back with.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I'm off to Istanbul in two weeks ime and hope to take as many photographs of the remains of the Column of Theodosius and the Column of Arcadius as I possibly can to see if the pen & ink drawings of those columns correspond to the fragmentary remains.

Good luck with that. I'll be interested to see what you come back with.

Funny, I posted the same thing earlier...seems it did not appear on here. :???:

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The topic got split off between the original and the American discussion, your post got moved, but I can move it back if you like.