Agkyle/amentum - construction

[geala]

I wonder how the throwing thong often seen on javelins was constructed.

Sometimes it is shown slung around the shaft with a temporary hitch knot and remained in the hand of the thrower (N. Sekunda in Osprey Elite 7, The Ancient Greeks, pg. 50), in "Warfare in the Classical World" pg. 46 and 50/51 it is shown permanently attached to the shaft in a form of loop.

The picture below (I don't know where it is from) is difficult to interprete for me. It may be the hitch knot and the loop has to be formed temporarily, like Secunda said.

Tests show me this: it is relatively time consuming to use a thong which remained in the hand of the thrower and was slung temporarily around the shaft just before the throw. If all javelins have already temporarily attached thongs before battle: then I don't know how the hitch knot was made and wether it guarantees a safe hold of the thong on the shaft before all javelins were thrown. A peltast running and jumping around could perhaps loose some thongs.

The method with the permanently attached loop is surely simpler, faster and/or with a safer hold, but I'm a little bit concerned wether the attached thong could not disturb the flight of the javelin because of worse aerodynamics?

Any suggestions?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

In the chigi vase the loops are attached to the shaft,while the spears stand straight pinned on the ground.This dos not secessarily mean that the loops were temporarily attached to the shaft.With the force of throwing the loops would be untied stay in the thrower's hand.

Befor the Athens Olympics in 2004 there was a re-enactment event near Olympia.They made a camp and even built a Palaistra,and they brought athlettes from different countries.They lived like ancients for weeks-they even had slaves! and had to practise like ancient athletes(bing almost naked and running bare feet etc)For the spear throwing they were told by the historians of the project that they had to use a loop.They were not told how they should do it,because the historians simply didn't know.After experimenting most athletes concluded in the same thing.The twisted the loop arround the shaft in some way.While throwing not only the loop was becoming an extension of their hand,but while unwraping,the shaft was weeling and this helped to have a more streight ans smoothe flight.
This theoretically at least because the athletes did not have much time to prepare and their attempts were not equal to what we expect of an ancient throw.
The programme was completed in several chapters as it was showing with details all the selection of athleted,their practice,everyday life in these weeks and finally the "Olympic Games"
Khaire
Giannis

[geala]

Sounds interesting, esp. that with the slaves.

The twist of the javelin can be achieved with both methods. I will make a few field experiments. The problem is that I don't know an adequate knot which will open with the throw. And I hope the permanent attached thong (with the thong staying on the shaft during the flight) will make no problems during release.

[PMBardunias]

Wolfgang, I have a couple of interesting papers on throwing the greek javelin. If you send me an email I'll return one with them attached.

[Johnny Shumate]

I braided my thong with sisal string and then rubbed bees wax on the part the makes contact with the javelin. The javelin has bees wax on the shaft also. This keeps the thong from slipping off. The thong stays in my hand and the cast is wonderful.
Johnny

[Paullus Scipio]

It is possible/probable that different methods of attachment were used in differentplaces/different times.

The one Johnny shows is very common for 'throwing arrows' - I was taught this method as a boy. It should be noted that most greek pottery depictions show a larger loop, with the first two fingers inserted for the throw.
Paul, I'd be most interested in those papers on javelin throwing - could you e-mail me a copy too ?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Was it not wraped around the shaft to impart a spin on the Javalin?
Sorry did not read the whole post by Giannis. I had heard that before somewhere.

[geala]

@ PM Bardunias: thank you for your offer, I have sent you an e-mail.

@ Johnny: sounds very interesting. Could be also done with the bigger two-finger-loop, I think. How reliable is the hold of the thong on the shaft? You have perhaps 5 to 7 javelins with you in fights and run and jump before throwing, so a safe hold is necessary in my opinion. And could dust and sand not adhere to the bees wax under field conditions and disturb the throwing?

@ Paullus Scipio: I agree with you (as usual :wink: ) that different methods were used and we should not be too dogmatic.

@ G J Caesar: Commonly it is thought that the thong is twisted around the shaft a few times to give a spin to the javelin to stabilize the flight. I don't have a source ready for this however.

[Paullus Scipio]

...as to whether the loop was permanently attached to the javelin or not, I can recall two instances that suggest it generally was.
The first is iconographic - in the foreground of the "Alexander Mosaic", a 'spent' javelin lies on the ground, with throwing loop in place.
The second is from literature - Plutarch recite an incident when the Achaen general Philopoemen is wounded by a javelin while fighting on foot. The javelin penetrates both his thighs (ouch !! ), and can't be pulled out because of the attached throwing loop...( Philopoemen snaps the javelin in two and the two parts can then be withdrawn ! hock: )

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Ow Ow Ow hock:

[geala]

I tried a bit with my javelins. The results are not what I expected. For me the best way of throwing was with a short loop, permanently and firmly attached and not twisted around the shaft.

I saw no difference in the stability of the flight with the thong wrapped around the shaft (which theoretically gives a stabilizing spin to the javelin) or with a normal loop. But without the twisted loop the release was smoother and the thong not so prone to get caught by the fingers.

Long loops or especially loops not permanently attached to the shaft were very difficult and slow to handle, when you have a pelte and the other javelins in your left hand. Of course with more training or aptness the results could be different.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

There is no point wrapping the thong arround the shaft if it is permanently attached to it!Spinning can be achieved only if the loop stays in your hand.
Wolfgang,did you see a great fifference in throwing the javelins with the loop in comparison to no loops at all?
Khaire
Giannis

[geala]

You can also wrap the permanently attached thong/loop around the shaft a few times (as it is shown in "Warfare in the Classical World" p. 50/51 in my paperback edition from 1995/2006), if it is long enough. I did this but saw no effect; this could of course come from bad throwing technique, perhaps you need more speed when throwing.

I feel more comfortable when throwing with a loop than without. With it you can control the javelin longer and give an additional punch and throw straighter and a bit further. It was sometimes painful for me (old lazy couch potatoe) to throw without the loop because you have to twist the arm a bit, otherwise the javelin very easily had an unstable flight.

Without the loop the javelin more often turns in the air, showing the side to the enemy; although even with these bad throws in the end the javelin most times hit with the (heavier) point, it would have been mostly psychological warfare causing incapacitation of the enemy through laughing.

I'm sure that people with a bit more training would have achieved much better performance with or without the loop. Btw, my javelins measure 150 cm, with a 1,5 cm shaft and a weight of 260 g. A little more weight would be nice but is difficult to achieve with the thin shafts.

[Anonymous]

There seems to be evidence for both fixed AND detachable thongs. I've never had a problem with this diversity.
It's possible that, when they used a detachable thong , they wrapped it around the shaft and then tied single bow/slip-knot, so that it wouldn't come off until they were ready to throw, i.e., you have to untie the knot on each javelin before you throw it. If you find yourself hard-pressed by the enemy, you just use it like a fixed thong. If you have been daft enough to get yourself very hard-pressed by the enemy, just sling the damned thing in his face any old how and leg it!