Persian armored saddles

[PMBardunias]

In the Cunaxa thread Persian saddles were discussed. I scanned this image from Sekunda's book on the Seleucids. It comes from 3-4th c BC Kwarezm. Anyone have other images of these?

[hoplite14gr]

I think your answer is here:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=18016

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Thanks Stefanos. I started this thread as a spin-off of that one. I was hoping that there were more and clearer images than have been posted so far. Are there really so few?

[MeinPanzer]

It is much more likely that this shows the bottom armoured skirt of the Chorasmian rider than that it shows parameridia or parapleuridia, as Sekunda suggests. Have a look at the 1st C. BC coins of Azes I and you can see how the Saka wore long suits of armour with split armoured skirts.

But to better answer your question, all other representations of parameridia or parapleuridia that I've seen are Persian or Anatolian and predate the Hellenistic period. (By far the best collection of these images is in Duncan Head's "The Achaemenid Persian Army.")

[etruschi]

A representation of an armored saddle can be seen on a Lykian tomb (look at the horseman's legs). That's why some scholar's believe the armor originated in Anatolia.
Because the armor in Sekunda's book looks rather stiff and rigid, I tend to agree with him that it is a Persian armored saddle.Most people and scholars believe that the armor consisted of 2 thighguards which were made of a wooden frame and were covered with bronze scales.These thighguards were suspended by a strap over the base of the horse's neck and were attached to the back (girdle) of the rider.
I on the other hand tend to believe that the material of the thighguards was more likely felt or hardened leather which was formed in the shape of the rider's legs.
The armor on the Lykian tomb seems to have no scales.This may indicate that the armor was a prototype made of plain leather.Prototype which in a later stage was supplemented with bronze scales.
In his book Sekunda says the armor is an advanced form of the Persian armored saddle.He may have based this on the fact that the thighguard in the picture looks a bit elongated so that it also covers a part of the rider's side.Maybe a part of the rider's belly was also protected by the armor, what means that the armor would have been a one- piece armor (2 thighguards connected by a strap of belly armour) rather than 2 seperate thighguards.
Hope to hear your comments on this.
Hope to see some other pictures of the armored saddle.
Greetings.

[MeinPanzer]

A representation of an armored saddle can be seen on a Lykian tomb (look at the horseman's legs). That's why some scholar's believe the armor originated in Anatolia.
Because the armor in Sekunda's book looks rather stiff and rigid, I tend to agree with him that it is a Persian armored saddle.

If you are referring to the image in the OP, there is nothing that indicates to me in such a simple representation that what is covering his leg is "stiff and rigid," but even if it is, the armoured skirts of the Sakae were almost certainly stiff and rigid, so there's no reason to assume that this is an armored saddle of any sort.

Most people and scholars believe that the armor consisted of 2 thighguards which were made of a wooden frame and were covered with bronze scales.These thighguards were suspended by a strap over the base of the horse's neck and were attached to the back (girdle) of the rider.

I on the other hand tend to believe that the material of the thighguards was more likely felt or hardened leather which was formed in the shape of the rider's legs.

This is, of course, pure speculation, so your guess or mine is as good as any scholar's. It could be either, but the wooden frame theory seems the most unlikely.

The armor on the Lykian tomb seems to have no scales.This may indicate that the armor was a prototype made of plain leather.Prototype which in a later stage was supplemented with bronze scales.

Only this relief has been badly effaced and any trace of detail on the parameridia or parapleuridia would have been removed. However, even if the relief wasn't badly eroded and the armour was still "plain," it was almost certainly painted, and so the scales would possibly have been painted on,

In his book Sekunda says the armor is an advanced form of the Persian armored saddle.He may have based this on the fact that the thighguard in the picture looks a bit elongated so that it also covers a part of the rider's side.Maybe a part of the rider's belly was also protected by the armor, what means that the armor would have been a one- piece armor (2 thighguards connected by a strap of belly armour) rather than 2 seperate thighguards.
Hope to hear your comments on this.
Hope to see some other pictures of the armored saddle.
Greetings.

Once again, considering the representations of heavily armoured cavalrymen on the coins of some Indo Saka kings, such as this one of Azes II, I think the most parsimonious explanation is that this is the bottom of an armoured skirt, and not some complex armoured saddle:

[etruschi]

If you read Duncan Head's book, you will find out that he also believes the armor frame was made of wood.
I agree the Indo-Scythians wore an armoured skirt as can be seen on the coin.This protection however would not have been as effective as the armored saddle.
If you are so sure that the image in Sekunda's book depicts the bottom of an armed skirt, can you please explain to me how they would manage to cover the front of their legs with a skirt which was split in 2 at the front.
When I see the picture in Sekunda's book, I am convinced that the front of the leg is covered.
The rounded backside of the armor in Sekunda's book is typical for armored saddles.I haven't seen this on any coins which depict Indo-Scythian armored skirts.
Greetings

[MeinPanzer]

If you read Duncan Head's book, you will find out that he also believes the armor frame was made of wood.

As I said before, anybody's opinion on this matter is about as good as yours or Duncan Head's or Nick Sekunda's or mine - they are all just speculation.

I agree the Indo-Scythians wore an armoured skirt as can be seen on the coin.This protection however would not have been as effective as the armored saddle.

But it would have been far more practical and far less cumbersome.

If you are so sure that the image in Sekunda's book depicts the bottom of an armed skirt, can you please explain to me how they would manage to cover the front of their legs with a skirt which was split in 2 at the front.

I the skirt would surely extend down the leg in a curved cross-section, so that the front edge would "hug" the side of the horse. This is the same principle that some finds of very heavy Scythian scale armour employed, with a corselet that extended down into two cuisses. The curvature of the armour on around the torso kept each half of the skirt curved inwards.
When I see the picture in Sekunda's book, I am convinced that the front of the leg is covered.

The rounded backside of the armor in Sekunda's book is typical for armored saddles.I haven't seen this on any coins which depict Indo-Scythian armored skirts.
Greetings

The rounded backside could easily be part of a regular saddle or something else. It doesn't seem to continue the square pattern of the armoured plates, anyway, so I don't think we can say with any certainty what it is.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Please excuse my ignorance, but are we talking about something like this?

[etruschi]

I the skirt would surely extend down the leg in a curved cross-section, so that the front edge would "hug" the side of the horse. This is the same principle that some finds of very heavy Scythian scale armour employed, with a corselet that extended down into two cuisses. The curvature of the armour on around the torso kept each half of the skirt curved inwards.
When I see the picture in Sekunda's book, I am convinced that the front of the leg is covered.

Can you explain this a little bit more please? Correct me if I'm wrong, but cuisses wouldn't protect the sides of the legs. Do you have a picture of such an armour?
As for the HAT Persian heavy cavalryman, yes we're talking about such an armor.
Greetings.