Question for Graham...Deurne shoe

[M. Demetrius]

Septimius The lines on the toe/side parts: are they incised part way through the leather sometimes, or all the way throug on all specimens? Wouldn't that make the shoe weaker?

Crispus, you didn't split the leather along the sides. Do they wear well enough without that? Looks like your sole wasn't a problem, either. Hobnails?

Also, around the heel, Martin, what is the horizontal line? It appears to be some kind of seam or something.

[Martin Moser]

Hi Lucianus,

very well done and thanks for the pic! Actually I am just on my way doing a "prototype" of this one as well at the moment. Hope to be able to show it in a week or so.

Also, around the heel, Martin, what is the horizontal line? It appears to be some kind of seam or something.

You mean the pic of Lucianus' shoe? That's a seam alright. This kind of shoe works almost like the carbatina know for centuries before, i.e. sole and upper are cut out in one piece.

[gaiusseptimiuslucianus]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks very much for the compliments!

Franklin,

I'll try to take some more pics tonight and post them. When I take these shoes apart, I'll post the pattern here.

As you can see the leather is fairly thin, about 4oz, so I decided to sew a hefty sole onto them so they wouldn't wear through so quickly. I have to admit I didn't use a tunnel stitch to sew them on, rather I fell back on my shoemaking skills from other time periods and cut a line about a 1.5mm into the grain side of the sole for the stitches to lay into (this is an early modern/modern shoemaking technique) and then just sewed up through the main body of the shoe. I have not worn through the stitches on the bottom or those inside the shoe.

Demetrius,

I did make all those parallel incisions go all the way through the shoe. When I made the shoe all I had was the archaeological drawing to go by but not any description. To my eye, the cuts seemed to go all the way through, so I decided to make them that way. I have had no problem at all with weakness or tearing out. It is very similar to slashing treatments I have used on 16th century footwear and likewise I have never had a problem with them either. They are far more sturdy than they might appear.

The horizontal line on the heel is a seam. It appears white because I used an edge-flesh butt seam with natural colored linen thread. I also sewed the toe seam in the same manner. Again I'm not sure if it is the correct method of closing the seams, using that particular stitch but I fell back on what I knew and stitched it up that way.

Martin,

I'll be very interested to see your reconstruction! Your work is always such an inspiration.

A couple of questions for you...

How thick is the leather on the original? I got the impression that it was somewhat thicker than usual so I'd be curious to know. I'm assuming it was vegetable tanned bovine hide, do you think they might have made them of alum tanned cowhide? I ask because I have a nice piece of white 4oz alum cow that might be fun to use.

Lucius,

I made the "scalloped" edge by cutting the circular opening above the toe and them taking a hole punch and punching a series of holes about 1mm in from the edge of the opening all the way around. Then I took an ex-acto knife and cut the hole open to the edge of the opening.

Cheers,

Lucianus

[Crispvs]

Demetrius,

I am not sure what you mean when you talk about splitting the leather along the sides. If you mean the cut-outs, I decided to omit these both to save time in making them (they had to be ready for next day when I made them) and because the leather was not as stiff as I would have wanted but was simply what I had at the time. As it turns out the shoes have proved surprisingly robust and this may be due to the fact that I sewed them up inside out and then turned them out the right way, which Carol Van Dreil-Murry later confirmed for me was the way the original had been made and which means that there are no exposed seams. Not realising that the original had not featured a separate sole, and lacking a sufficiently thick piece of leather at the time, I stitched two layers of the same leather together to make the sole which I then sewed on to the already turned shoe.
I hope that helps.

Crispvs

[gaiusseptimiuslucianus]

Crispvs,

Very interesting that the shoes were turned. When you spoke with Carol Van Dreil-Murray did she happen to mention the type of stitch that was used on the seams? Edge flesh, lap, saddle stitch, I'm dying to know .

Cheers,

Lucianus

[Crispvs]

Unfortunately I do not remember what the stitch used was, although she did tell me. Unfortunately it was just one of those casual conversations you have when you bump into someone for a moment during the tea break between papers at a conference.

Crispvs

[Martin Moser]

So turned after all ... many thanks and laudes for that valuable piece of information, Crispvs! I've been thinking along that line more than once but could not quite bring myself to accept it so far.
As for the stitch my guess would be that it was whipped around the edges, some of the pics of those shoes I know show what to my eyes looks pretty scalloped edges, i.e. what you typically get with a whip-stitch.
As for leather thickness, my next try after the one I'm doing at the moment will be with 3-4mm thick leather, but I plan to keep that thickness for the sole only and reduce it to 1-2mm in the area of the upper and see what result I get with this.
Many thanks and laudes indeed for reviving this thread, Lucianus!

[Franklin]

Looking at the original (posted on page 1 of this thread) I can certainly see evidence of turning on the front toe seam, but the top toe seam looks more like it was originally butted outward.

[Julia Langobardia]

that`s the way I was going to go - do the heel seams and toe seam left side out, turn the shoe and then do the front seam on the toes from the right side

so is everybody working on this shoe at the moment? :lol:

[Franklin]

I've been "working on it" for over a year I think! Other projects just keep popping up.

[garrelt]

Slits were also made in shoes to make them a better fit.
You can see some examples in Stepping Through Time.

[Franklin]

Also Julia, if you're working on a 4th or 5th century impression your choice of documentable footwear is almost NOTHING! So not surprising that several people are working on the same shoe.

[Julia Langobardia]

if you thinks thats nothing - do 6th / 7th century :wink: wink:

[gaiusseptimiuslucianus]

Martin,

I know what you mean about the turning, for whatever reason I've been having a hard time accepting it as well :wink: . I agree from the look of the indentations the seams do look whipped. I will be very interested to see your reconstruction of the shoe. I assume you will skive down the uppers to reduce the thickness? Do you think you will do that just in the region of the seams or all over? Just curious!

Hopefully I'll get to making my new pair in a month or so when I'm done with an evening course I'm taking.

Lucianus

[aitor iriarte]

Oh, and I missed this thread!
I started working on this same pair in 1994 because I thought then that the spur was recovered on one of them. When Carol told me that it was really attached to one of the campagi, I turned all my attention to them. :roll:

Aitor