Squamata single shoulder guard

[Tarbicus]

Caballo's spotted this before, but I think it's worth a closer look.

http://www.romanarmy.ie/DSC00815.JPG

http://www.romanarmy.ie/Adamklissi_HD.htm

Has he really got a single additional shoulder guard on his right shoulder? It's really interesting if he has - one of those additional reinforcements? Looks like it's made of organic material as well, or could it be metal (hamata on the metopes always seems to be depicted as holes)?

I have great faith in these metopes, so I'd be tempted to replicate that if I ever get squamata.

[Flavius Promotus]

An additional shoulder guard on a squamata would make sense if we think of the ongoing furca debate. The more equipment you load onto your right (or left?) shoulder, the more you a likely to damage the scale structure there. I have to admit that I never had scale armour on (only ham and seg ) :wink: , but I can imagine such problems to arise.

I cannot see a left shoulder guard in this image, but maybe the artist did not take pains in producing one because of the sword baldric running over the left shoulder?

[Marcus Mummius]

I cannot see a left shoulder guard in this image, but maybe the artist did not take pains in producing one because of the sword baldric running over the left shoulder?

I'm thinking the same thing...

[Tarbicus]

I see what you're saying about the baldric making the sculptor omit the left shoulder guard. But it's more difficult to carve the scales around the baldric, surely?

[M. Demetrius]

Hey, Jim, I can't think of ANYthing about carving stone that is easy! Heh.
Leastwise, not for me... :lol: :lol:

[D B Campbell]

An additional shoulder guard on a squamata would make sense if we think of the ongoing furca debate.

Interesting, Florian. I immediately made the link with the manica that the man is wearing, and assumed extra protection for the right side.

[Tarbicus]

I immediately made the link with the manica that the man is wearing, and assumed extra protection for the right side.

That's exactly what Caballo did while he was researching his article on the manica.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I canna see a manica in this shot, but I recall seeing it clearly the last time this was discussed! :? It looks alot like a hamata doubler in this shot!
Hell, anything would do if it helped defend against losing your arm to a falx! hock:

[Magnus]

Dont' forget too that the shoulder sans guard would be the one behind the scutum...maybe it just didn't need the extra armour?

[Tarbicus]

Dont' forget too that the shoulder sans guard would be the one behind the scutum...maybe it just didn't need the extra armour?

I agree with you there Matt. There must be a huge photo of this metope on the web, somewhere.

[SOCL]

I know this isn't strictly about this exact topic, but it's a squamata-related question: About when would we put an effective date on squamata entering Roman service? Are we talking pre-Civil Wars? Punic Wars? Just curious...

[Matt Lukes]

There seem to be factors that argue for both sides:

Notice that the shape of the piece is backwards in comparison to the usual form- the lower edge 'tab' is on the outside rather than the inside- that's odd, and the scales all have a central rib, which is not the norm either. These carvings were clearly not done by master stonecarvers- they're rather amateurish in form, so it's not so easy to take details as being accurate- they might simply be a result of lack of expertise on the part of the mason. And then there's the tombstone of the Aqulifer Firmus who has a standard-looking pair of doubler flaps on the shoulders of his scale shirt.

However, as Jim pointed out, there's the fact that while initially it might seem that the carver simply omitted the left side piece, if that were the case, it doesn't make sense that he'd include the rather harder to carve scales about the baldric- it'd have been easier to make the simple flap. That does suggest the depiction is correct. It also seems reasonable that because manicae are shown in use in some scenes, and because they're definitely specific extra protection for the right side, a single extra bit on the right shoulder isn't unreasonable to consider to have been in use as well.

This is indeed a uniquely interesting carving and I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for choosing to add such a neat possible feature to a reconstructino :wink:

[Matt Lukes]

This reminds me- there's a proper name for these shoulder 'flaps' that I read someplace a little while back but I can't for the life of me remember it- anyone know?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

doubler, mantle, mantlette....? flappy things on your shoulders...?

[Matt Lukes]

No- it was a formal term, Greek maybe? Damn my memory sometimes... I thought I wrote it down because it was surprising to find the things have a name, but I have so many notes and diagrams and lists...