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weapons and armour of the greek marine
#46
Giannis K. Hoplite

I’m not sure I follow your reasoning…

If you don’t think the Scythians supplied the archers as mercenaries (and I would agree I don’t see how Athens could have paided for such a force either as mercenaries or public slaves), and you also think I’m incorrect in assuming the Athenians used citizens as archers; who was shooting arrows from some 200 Athenian ships at Salamis?

Why not citizen archers – the Athenian made up democracy and a navy out of whole cloth why not archers as well? Sure a certain minority class of avidly literate aristocratic Athenians despised archers and believed in a world of small hoplite only polis fantasy – but they generally despised democracy and navies as well. The majority of the Athenians went ahead and built both a navy and a lasting democracy anyway, so why not also archers.
Paul Klos

\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
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#47
Maybe my post was a bit confusing.I said I think most of the archers on board would have been citizens. So we don't disagree. But if archers were citizens in Salamis(your example) this does not necessarily mean this was the case in the Peloponnesian war,thus Salamis is not a good example for the organization of the Athenian navy 50 years later.
In other words,Herodotus does speaks only for persian marines when saying they were not able to swim. But this does not rule out later on the greeks used Skyhian archers.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#48
In Salamis the almost the whole Athenian hoplite complement alongside with Platean and Thespian refuges fought as marines.

Usually most cities recruited their marines from the coastal populations.
Even the middle class hoplites of these areas made their livelihood from the sea and had some form of "sea experience".

Cretan archers were available as mercenaries and some poorer citizens might use bows although slingers would be a greater propability as native missile troops.

As for Dorydrepanon check this:
http://odysseus.culture.gr/h/4/gh430.jsp?obj_id=4652
Click on image and a guy with a strange weapon is rather visible.
Kind regards
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#49
Hi Stephanos

Why don't you post up one of the latest piccies I sent you of that particularly handsome Cretan Marine!! :lol:

Hope you are well

Mark
Noli Nothis permittere te terere!!

Mark.
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#50
Hello Mark, I just came back from a bussiness trip and acces my own computer. Your wish will be fulfiled in the Greek warrior impression thread shortly.
Kind regards
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#51
Quote: Maybe my post was a bit confusing.I said I think most of the archers on board would have been citizens. So we don't disagree. But if archers were citizens in Salamis(your example) this does not necessarily mean this was the case in the Peloponnesian war,thus Salamis is not a good example for the organization of the Athenian navy 50 years later.

True, but I see little evidence that the Athenians changed to mercenary in the intervening years, and in fact rather a lot to say they did not.

First I think any reading of Thucydides 2.13 that would see the 1600 archers as anything but predominantly if not totally citizen, strains the whole point of the passage beyond the breaking point. The passage is all about the resources of Athens – no mention is made of say the allied ships or soldiers Athens might call on, nor is even the potential of raising the assessment of the Allies brought up - Pericles noting what resources Athens has at the moment. It seems reasonable that Pericles might well be adding the Scythian police into this total but tey still represent a relatively tiny fraction of the whole 300 out of 1600 (or maybe 1700).

Better yet is Lysias 34.4 – He is arguing against the proposal of Phormisios to limit Athenian citizenship to just land/property owning Athenians.

“No, if you will be advised by me; nor, after losing our walls, shall we denude ourselves of our forces,--large numbers of our infantry, our cavalry and our archers…â€
Paul Klos

\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
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#52
It is generally believed that javelin is more easier to master than bow.
I would like to know if members can support or argue against this.
The upper deck oarsmen are thought more to support the hoplites "epivatae" with javelins and fight on land as psiloi or peltasts.
They even used harpoons if we interpret liberally the pottery fragment I presented.
I do take Paul's argument seriously about the origins of our sources coming from "landsmen".

And the question can also be if the "native" archers were enough to make the impact in a mostly mercenary or allied complement.

Kind regards
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#53
Quote: They even used harpoons if we interpret liberally the pottery fragment I presented.

I would hesitate to use an image from the Bronze Age to draw conclusions about what the oarsmen of a trireme might do. In particular the ship in question is almost certainly a single banked ship, thus the oarsmen were very much also the marines and an aphract to boot.

Thucydides is very unambiguous that the Athenians did not generally aim at any kind of boarding action or missile skirmish, the ship was their weapon. Moreover, the Athenians were using Cataphract triremes from Cimon’s day onward – if the ship was fenced against missiles I don’t really see how the oarsmen could shoot out – indeed to use some of the oarsmen as effective marines the Rhodians had to develop the triemoiolia.

Quote: The upper deck oarsmen are thought more to support the hoplites "epivatae" with javelins and fight on land as psiloi or peltasts.

On land you have no argument with me. The evidence is rather unambiguous oarsmen served as slingers and peltasts, but that does not say anything about the archers who served as archers on land or sea.
Except of course where the oarsmen were specifically described as hoplites/passengers.

Quote: It is generally believed that javelin is more easier to master than bow.

Which is why men who were being asked to do something outside of their area of expertise, say oarsmen on shore were typically armed with javelins, and gerrons.

But I don’t see how that impacts on Athens ability to raise a force of Archers.

I return to the simple fact that before the democracy Athens had none of these three: a Cavalry force, a navy or archers. Yet I don’t think you will dispute that by 430 BC Athens had a large, and at worst average cavalry, the best Navy in the Mediterranean, so why not allow a similar effort to raise a force of archers. Archery might be difficult but so was sailing a trireme and the Athenians clearly learned how to do that and bested historical navel polis.

Quote: nd the question can also be if the "native" archers were enough to make the impact in a mostly mercenary or allied complement.

But where is the evidence that the bulk of the archers were mercenary? Foreign archers make up only a tiny fraction of the casualty lists, while Lysias 34.4 is simply nonsensical drivel if the thetes did not provide many if not most of the archers.

I will admit the evidence is somewhat opaque – most references to archers are simply that - no modifier of Athenian or Foreigner or Barbarian. The casualty lists are fragmentary, and the nature of the Athenian democracy's records (rolls of citizens) and their treatment of thetes in particular are controversial and based again on an extremely fragmentary body of evidence.

Overall I think this is and issue we simply do not see eye to eye on…
Paul Klos

\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
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#54
Dear Paul,
I agree with you on art interpretation. Actually me and Giorgos interpreted the "harpoon" as a javelin and the "loop" as "problematic painting".
But we cannot be 100% sure that even our "conservative" approach is the best.

I do not completely disagree with you about "native" archers.
In fact if there is a way to argue the ease of bow vs javelin I will be inclined to agree more with you. And I said the you argument worths a note and gave me a point to re examine "light marines" but I am not convinced with the size and origin of bowmen.

Athenians also had links in Thrace were the could enlist Thracian archers and peltasts. Bowmen are thought to be more comon in Thrace rather than Central and South Greece.

As for trireme crew the initial crew might coming from the coastal attic villages where sailing a "cutter craft" and navigating were known skills.
These men would be the basis to build the crews and probably eased the massive training projects of Themistokles and Kimon.
Is easier to execute oar drill than teach navigation

Kind regards
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