Roman Sexuality

[Doc]

Pardon the subject, but one of my colleagues at work mentioned that in Greek and Roman times homosexual behavior was widely practiced between you males (teenage) and adult males as well as adult male to adult male.

He would like to know if there is any evidence for this being true according to the sources or is it a modern way of interpreting some of the texts that appear to suggest such behavior where in fact it is not true.



Paolo

[Theodosius the Great]

Paolo,

Comparing Greek to Roman attitudes is like comparing apples to oranges.

Homosexuality (i.e. as a "lifestyle") was universally seen as unthinkable. What was more practiced was bisexuality.

As far as the Romans go : male bisexuality was not widespread and seems to have been limited to the upper class (ditto for the Greeks) but was not something to be flaunted. Julius Caesar always publicly denied having homosexual relations with King Nicomedes. Suetonius records that this charge against Caesar was frequently quoted against him by his political enemies and that it was a "dark stain on his reputation." (Suetonius, Julius Caesar 49)

Then there's the Roman law (Lex Scantinia) against pederasty which proscribes the death penalty for any offenders.

The Romans also held women to higher standards than men. Female bisexuality was a horrid concept. This can be read in Latin literature (e.g. Martial)

As for the Greeks, you may want to open up a thread in the 'Greek' section of RAT. But in Plato's 'Republic' there's an ambiguous passage that may suggest pedestry but it is only spoken of in a passing manner (as if it wasn't uncommon) where men are walking about with their boys. But Xenophon was adamantly against homosexual acts as were all the great Greek philosophers - Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

~Theo

[Doc]

Thanks for the reply. This is what I was looking for overall, not a detailed discussion.


Paolo

[StrategyM]

Wikipedia covers the basic info of the matter pretty accurately from what I can tell by a brief scan.

Homosexuality in Greece

Roman Sexuality, Homosexuality in Rome

Caesar having an alleged homosexual relationship with King Nicomedes was not a dark stain on his reputation. The problem of the allegation was the implication that he was the passive partner in the affair.

You will find this stressed as well in all of Suetonius recounting of the scandal: Bibulus referring to Caesar as the "Queen of Bithynia", Caesar's soldiers singing "All the Gauls did Caesar vanquish, Nicomedes vanquished him; Lo! now Caesar rides in triumph, victor over all the Gauls, Nicomedes does not triumph, who subdued the conqueror", or Curio referring to Caesar as "every woman's man and every man's woman."

I don't believe there is sufficient evidence for a claim that same-sex relations was limited to the upper class (mostly a case of arguing from absence of evidence).

[Carlton Bach]

Indeed, Wikipedia gets it right, including the controversies. What can not be stressed enough is that homosexual/heterosexual are modern concepts. There is no evidence that the ancients classified sexuality in terms of the object of one's desires. Rather, it appears that sexual desire was seen as a force that could be directed at all manner of objects. Thus, images of Pan or the Satyrs masturbating and having sex with men, women and animals indiscriminately do not indicate perversion through the choice of partners (we are not looking at heterosexual, homosexual and zoophile satyrs, respectively) but utter lack of restraint and self-control. Note that this concept of sexuality is alive and well in popular culture to this day, and increasingly recognised by researchers in numerous fields. (One of the most hated, and most common, questions to male homosexual couples continues to be 'Who is the wife' - a concept the Romans would have understood)

Generally (though not in every instance), the sexual practices and taboos of the ancient world make much more sense when viewed through a prism of power relationships than through the modern perspective of partner choice.

[hoplite14gr]

Usually the issue is not if same sex relationships existed, they always did, do and will do.
People tried to use archeolgical evidence to show that ancients were not only tolerant but also very positive on the issue.
The ancient sources can be biased for or against the subject just like ours.
You need to "water down" a lot the translation of Aristophanes to avoid legal problems with tolerance issues for instance.
As I have posted before societies were indulgent every individual important to their economy or defense but not so very tolerant to the "commoner"
Seems a bit like our times.

Kind regards

[john m roberts]

In the ancient world one's position in the social hierarchy was by far one's most important characteristic. This was true in sexual relationships as in all other areas of life.The "dominator" was judged differently from the "dominated." The same holds true in modern American prison society, which is similarly stratified. The active partner in a male-male relationship is not necissarily cast as homosexual, while the passive partner invariably is. Petronius speaks of the nameless "Catamite" in his novel with clear contempt, while Encolpius and Eumolpus are not condemned for their infatuation with young Giton. Giton himself seems to have been viewed as a bisexual figure quite different from the "catamite." clearly the ancient world had gradations unknown to more modern one-or-the-other definitions that come from the Judeo-Christian tradition.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Which Roman!! author was it again, who wrote the following about the Greeks...


If they cannot have their men or boys they revert to women, and if there are no women to be found they still have their sheep.......

:lol:


M.VIB.M.