Greek Saddles

[hoplite14gr]

Stefan I understand that you have a problem viewing the bronze figurine.
Its encoding is JPEG.
Please try this link:
http://www.benaki.gr/collections/greece ... #geometric

Tell me if you succed.

Kind regards

[hoplite14gr]

GREEK BRONZE PROTOME OF A RECUMBENT HORSE
Thessaly, ca. 500-490 BC from Royal Athena Galleries

Probably saddle(?)

Kind regards

[hoplite14gr]

Skythian saddle info here:
http://www.karakumstud.com/blog.nsf/d6p ... EIE-6W5JLV

Kind regards

[Eleatic Guest]

Thx for the two pics. But do they already show a tree saddle (sorry, they're rather small)? When did the Greeks start to use tree saddles as the Scythians?

[hoplite14gr]

Tree saddle? I trust you mean wooden reinforced saddle
Probably until 480 B.C. it was an expensive oddity for aristocrats.
They probably had the chance to see a lot of them from the destroyed asiatic cavalry units and probably copy them.

Although I feel until the time of Philip II Greeks used rolls of felt rather some kind of frame.

Kind regards

[bachmat66]

hello
regarding Scythians aka Saka and their impact on the saddlery and harness development in the ancient world, perhaps it would have been worthwhile to look at the other side of the Great Steppe - China. There is a perfect representation of as 'treed saddle' with small pommel and cantle from the 'buried terracotta army' of first emperor of China, Qin Shi Huang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army
It is dated to the 3rd century BC and cavalry horses have those low saddles. Unfortunately those saddles were not depicted in the Osprey's Ancient Chinese Armies. I have a picture of such horse and try to post it later.
Perhaps correspondingly Macedonians were using such saddles around 4th century, being in constant 'touch' with the Scythians and Scytho-Thracians of Danube area... otherwise I am not sure how Alexander was able to execute those cavalry charges, full gear and long lance etc.

[MeinPanzer]

hello
regarding Scythians aka Saka and their impact on the saddlery and harness development in the ancient world, perhaps it would have been worthwhile to look at the other side of the Great Steppe - China. There is a perfect representation of as 'treed saddle' with small pommel and cantle from the 'buried terracotta army' of first emperor of China, Qin Shi Huang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army
It is dated to the 3rd century BC and cavalry horses have those low saddles. Unfortunately those saddles were not depicted in the Osprey's Ancient Chinese Armies. I have a picture of such horse and try to post it later.
Perhaps correspondingly Macedonians were using such saddles around 4th century, being in constant 'touch' with the Scythians and Scytho-Thracians of Danube area... otherwise I am not sure how Alexander was able to execute those cavalry charges, full gear and long lance etc.

As far as I can tell form what evidence I've seen, the "Scythian" saddle was only in use as far west as Thrace by the late fourth/early third century BC and not Macedonia. It is clear from iconographic evidence that even if the Macedonians knew of the saddle, at least the large majority of Macedonian cavalrymen right down to the end of the Hellenistic kingdoms rode only with a saddle cloth. The one exception that I know is a relief of an Epirote cavalryman from Apollonia dating to the 2nd C. BC which shows a cavalryman clearly riding in a saddle.

[philsidnell]

I may be mistaken but I think you'll find the early Scythian saddles did not have a true tree running longitudinally, but had wooden arches at pommel and cantle (front and rear), joining padded sections.

The gold figures atop the comb from the Scythian burial at Solokha, which is late 5th or early 4th century BC, shows no signs of a saddle on either horse.

A Scythian silver amphora from Certomlyk, which I am pretty sure is dated to the 4th century BC, shows a Scythian horse with what appears to be a thick pad or blanket with a thicker padded part forming a rudimentary pommel .

Xenophon, writing in the mid 3rd century BC says the saddle blanket should be designed to provide a good seat for the rider while not injuring the horse's back, which suggests something with a little more structure than a simple blanket was becoming available - perhaps a blanket with padded rolls or sections?


The Kazanluk tomb paintings, just after Alexander's day, show a very simple saddle with a slightly (but definitely) raised pommel.


Phil Sidnell

[Duncan Head]

Have you all seen this?

http://seneca.uab.es/antiguitat/SCYTHIA ... celona.pdf includes an abstract of Vinogradov, "A Wooden Saddle Core of the Latter Half of the 4th c. B.C. from Panticapaeum".

[bachmat66]

hello
this must have been some conference
indeed messer Vinogradov, in this paper - within this abstract pdf on page 55 - delivers argument supported by solid material evidence for the existence of the 'rigid' saddles around the Northern Pontic Steppe that must have been developed by the Northern Iranian nomads for their lance wielding mounted warriors.
Incidentally the Chinese saddles from 3rd century BC show just cantle and pommel or front and rear arches, but divided in the middle, which suggest the later development into horned saddles?
If this bloody world would be more peaceful I am sure many regions of the Central Asian states, Western China (Tarim Basin), Afghanistan and Iran could have been properly excavated and perhaps many riddles solved, including this one.
I still think that Macedonians and their Thracian and Tessallian allies rode seated in some sort of rigid-arches saddle. By the way,
please find some very interesting article on javelin throwing and archery while on horseback at this myarmnoury.com discussion - delivered by master horseman Peter Bosman
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10291
by the way Peter rides his stallion bride-less like the Numidians !
bachmat

[hoplite14gr]

Interesting info. Laudes Duncan!
Kind regards.

[MeinPanzer]

Have you all seen this?

http://seneca.uab.es/antiguitat/SCYTHIA ... celona.pdf includes an abstract of Vinogradov, "A Wooden Saddle Core of the Latter Half of the 4th c. B.C. from Panticapaeum".

I posted about this in an earlier thread when I found a mention of the paper, but I didn't find the abstract itself. Thanks for posting it.

Interestingly, the recent excavation of the kurgan of a warrior in the Mongolian part of the Altai mountains revealed two horses with the wooden portions of their saddles preserved. The burial dates to the end of the 4th or beginning of the 3rd C. BC. The warrior wore a large fur coat with short trousers (reaching to the knee) and tall felt boots and was buried with a wicker shield, a dagger in a wooden scabbard, a perfectly preserved sagaris, and a complete bow with gorytus and arrows (the first bow found in a Pazyryk burial). He was buried with two horses, both of which had saddles with wooden pommel and cantle. The picture I've seen of it is unfortunately unclear, but the written description of the excavation stated that the horses had two different kinds of saddles. The word used to describe the style was "Hunno-Sarmatian," and the author considered it a precursor to later styles of saddles.

[philsidnell]

by the way Peter rides his stallion bride-less like the Numidians !
bachmat

But unlike the Numidians, who must be contenders for the finest horsemen ever, he uses stirrups.

I went a long way toward teaching myself to ride stirrupless, but I never really got far with actually using weapons from horseback before I had to give up on the research project for various reasons. I hope one day to do a full programme of experiments with various weapons from horseback with something approximating ancient tack (although of course I'll never use some of those horrendous ancient bits). I haven't actually ridden for a few years now, since becoming a dad, so this is a distant dream for now.

Phil Sidnell

[philsidnell]

Interestingly, the recent excavation of the kurgan of a warrior in the Mongolian part of the Altai mountains revealed two horses with the wooden portions of their saddles preserved. The burial dates to the end of the 4th or beginning of the 3rd C. BC. ... He was buried with two horses, both of which had saddles with wooden pommel and cantle. The picture I've seen of it is unfortunately unclear, but the written description of the excavation stated that the horses had two different kinds of saddles. The word used to describe the style was "Hunno-Sarmatian," and the author considered it a precursor to later styles of saddles.

I'd love to read and see more about this. Where can I see that picture?

Thanks

Phil

[MeinPanzer]

I'd love to read and see more about this. Where can I see that picture?

Thanks

Phil

http://www.amazon.de/Zeichen-goldenen-G ... 540&sr=8-3

This has a few pictures, inluding one of his coat, his trousers, and his dagger. Unfortunately, the book does not have pictures of many of the items which were included in the exhibition, including the almost perfect sagaris. Neither the exhibition nor this book show the shield.