Macedonian Sarrisa

[Hypaspist]

Does anyone our there have Information on Exact Sizes or weights of Sarrisa Fittings , Butts or Points ?? Pictures ? That is beyond What Connelly or Other sources have Written?? I recently Bought two ,(for my Modest collection of Weapons ) Swiss 16th century pikes .. and was Quite amazed once in hand , how easily they handled .. Now they are about 5 meteres Long , Ash Poled , and about 5 pounds ( sorry I do not know meteric ).. You can poke out a eye with one quite well ! The Sarrisa is thought to be longer .. heavier , and Of Course the Pikes have a Small Light Head , and a bare Butt . I would like to find enough Information to Replicate a Alexander period Sarrisa , and I simply am not up on the Known Facts .. I know one set of fittings is in the Athens Museum ?? Also has there been any more Information Published about if they where one piece of wood or Joined from two ?? Now I have seen the Pikes in hand ,its not a stretch to see that they could have been made in One Piece ?

Thanks,
Michael Pechacek Sr.

[MeinPanzer]

Well, though there are many arguments many ways on this issue, the truth is that there are no examples of weapons that have been found that are totally verifiable as sarissai. Many people follow the Andronikos view that the large and heavy spearhead, joint, and spearbutt found in the tomb at Vergina were from a sarissa, but Nick Sekunda wrote an article a while back which very eloquently brings doubt to this view. If you shoot me an email at [email protected] I can send you the article, which summarizes all the evidence for sarissai, discusses the modern theories, and coincidentally enough, also discusses parallels with 16th century pikes.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I think Manning imperial do one, but I could be wrong.

[hoplite14gr]

A number of thinner pike points has been found in various tombs.
In the Olympia there is a particularlly narrow one with the letters MKD (stands for MAKEDNON).

Pic of Vergina finds

There is a good chance that Andronikos mistook a heavy blade of a probable hunting spear point for pike point. A number corroded iron items that could not be identified are mentioned and are still in the labs of the Thessalonika museum.

I belive that the sarissa point would be:
http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/TaliarosA.htm
3rd point from bottom (second pic from top)

Kind regards

[Hypaspist]

After some Experimentation , and Thought .. yep I agree with Sekunda on a Smaller Point for the Sarrisa , a large Bladed head would not have much efficency , or give you the effective Amour piercing capability needed for a pike like weapon . I only have a few Old Art type catalogs , but one " The Search for Alexander " Exhibition Catalog ( Various Authors , Greek Ministry of Culture and Sciences , 1980 ) , does have a set of Points shown that seem to me to be quite what one would need for the Cavalry Version of the Sarrisa with " two points " both found in Tomb 2 Vergina , catalog #168(TAM # 143, lenght .333M , width at widest.028m) Sure fits what would be expected of the Butt , a heavy central Body, with short cutting edges and # 169 (TAM#146) Would match as a head , both stylisticly and size wise .# 169 a long thing point ,.553m long ,greatest width .033m, would work fairly well as a Sarrisa head .. Still I think a Smaller Point would work better , similar to a Late Medieval Pike / early Modern Age ( I will send Pictures as soon as I figure out how) .
As far as How much we can pull out of Art sources like the " Alexander Mural" from the "House of the Faun "In Pompiie, I think not much . 1st of all the heads are simply Stylized , If you look at other weapons in the Mural they have the Same head profile , Even of the Persians , and even the Head of Alexanders " Sarrisa" , has again the same shape . But also one of the Sarrisa , and a Spear point Buried into a Persian Horse ( the Black one in front of Alexander ) Have a very Round , Leaf shaped profile , or Shoulders. There seems only 2 styles of Spear heads portrayed , yes I believe , Not Factual , but Artistic . The Black lines on many of The background Sarrisa , could very well just be a Artist covention to portray a decorative raised band as on the , Thought Sarrisa Butts , as the one Published By M. Adronikos . Two Lines are also many times shown in Medival Art on Spear heads ,. But it is Intersting that the " Sarrisa heads "All have only One Nail or Rivit .. Ummm ?? the Heads also have a ratio of about 2:1 width to socket body . I do not know what all others have came up with , But about 1/12 inches in about what you want for a pike or " Sarrisa" You can wrap your hand around it Gives a much better Grip .So if this is the case that would project to about 3" across , a little too wide I would believe for the Blade?? That could be shaved down some buy a thinner shaft or tapering near the Point .
As far as the Butt ,, well it is really not so Bright to put butts on weapons just to prevent the cutting of their length . It would be much easier to mark with paint , Brand the end ( Again I will send Photos) it is what the Swiss did to their Pikes ! :wink: I mean You do not Put Butts for this reason n Pilum , or Dorys , Other Spears ?? And the Intersting thing about the Discounted Butt with the Four Flanges , is it would make the Sarrisa sit better in the Ground .. IF it was the purpose at all .. Maybe the four Flanges had to do with ease of Fabrication , too in some way , it keeps the same amount of metal and weight with all surfaces not getting too thick . ( Just a thought ) Also IF you held this Long Shaft down near the end , some weight back there would really help controlling the Point .
One more point .. Just because the Point of the spear, found attached to the wall in Tomb II Vergina did not have the Room for a WHOLE Sarrisa Shaft , does not mean in any way it is NOT FROM A SARRISA , this is a Lapse in Logic , there are examples of things being Cut or broken to fit in Tombs , and IF it was important enough to the Person or those involved with choosing material to be placed in the Tomb , it would make more sense to shorten the shaft then enlarge the Tomb
Any Other references or Ideas would be great . Does anyone have Lammert's work on Sarrias , Or M. Andronikos ?

Michael Pechacek Sr

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The sarissa may had been made in two pieces joined together with a meta cylinder. So it is possible to place a sarissa in a small tomb,even if you don't have to cut it.
In the Vergina museum I saw a spear point and butt, with part of the wood intact inside the blades. It was golden(not covered with a sheet of gold,though I saw that also) and what stroke my attention is how thinner was the shaft in the point and how much thicker in the butt. As you already know,I was not alloewd to take photographs. I can say that the shaft in the spear point was probably as thin as 1,5-2 cm! I can say this was the actual thicknes in antiquity as it still had the golden paint on it. I don't remember in which tomb it was found,probably in the "Prince's" tomb. Next to it was spear with the shaft fully covered by gold sheet! I did not have much time and I could not take photos,so I don't remember lenght and thickness. Nor do I remember what the points and butts looked like. I bet the golden painted one had a long and very thin point,and probably the butt was iron,too.
Khairete
Giannis

PS.Kallimachos went to Vergina later than me,perhaps he remembers more?

[Hypaspist]

Giannis
yes I have heard about and seen the Sleeve thought to come from a Sarrisa :wink: It is of course Possible . And would help with practicality of storage and transport . Plus the need for such top quality , and long pieces of wood , would be diminished too , Making fabrication easier . Though if we look at the Pompeii Mural , there is no sleeve where there should be one :roll: Also of course if two pieces where used no cutting or Breaking would be needed in such a space , my only point was to dicount the spear head because of appraised shortness of the shaft was not a valid argument
Michael Pechacek Sr

[Paralus]

The notion of a "joining tube" or coupling for two parts of a sarissa is intriguing. If that is indeed what Andronikos has excavated, it is not terribly long. As well (and I don't have the measurements in front of me), it required tapering of the shaft on its way to the coupling - from both ends.

Whilst, in practical terms, I can't see any difficulty with this tapering for the point or but ends, a reduction of diameter a third or half way along might make for a weakened 15- 18 foot weapon. Any coupling is likely to reduce the weapon's integrity. One as short and involving a thinning of the shaft diameter would, you'd think, reduce it further.

Looking back though, common sense would seem to indicate that the weapons would have to be transported with some sort of ease. Must have been a bugger finding all the bits and pieces after a Gaugamela or Issus. You'd certainly not be wanting to smith it all over again.

It would be lovely for the ancients to have left us some artwork depicting the sarissa armed foot. Unfortunately there likely was not much in the way of artistic license that could be applied to a bristling, iron-tipped hedgehog.

[Hypaspist]

A Thought ??
A Sleeve or " Joining tube " would also be a quick fix to a Broken LONG POLE( ie a Sarrisa ) :-) ) It could also maybe add some structural Integrity ?? Also the Japanese for One used a TUBE to act as a slide for lancing when using a certain Type of very Long Yari( Spear ) .. ??
Michael Pechacek

[Alexander Polemos]

A tapered shaft was definately a yes, though i dont know by how much. a tapered wooden shaft helps with balance, and keeps the weight down as opposed to a long, straight pole with a massive counterweight. This much i can say for certain. other than that, i dont have anything that i can say is true. i have some theories, but they are pure speculation.

a personal theory: they could have been connected by nothing more than a pice of rawhide at times. when raw, untreated leather gets wet then shaped, it srinks tightly and hard as it dries. take two 9' poles and find a way to interlock them somehow, then wrap and tie a wet strip of rawhide around it.. the rawhide tightens and shrink wraps around the wood.if they had a way to keep both section of the shaft straight while the rawhide was drying, i see no reason why this woudnt work and be somewhat plausible. and its also easy to break down into a smaller spear, when needed. see bottom theory.

the one that really seems to apply to this is that extra sarrisa's were bundled and tied together, or atleast the shafts that were not in use. They must have had a large number of backup shafts,and bundling them seems one of the easiest ways to keep them in one piece. also, one bundles arrows together in the same way when the wood is becoming seasoned. it prevents warping.

and something else i think sort of belongs here... I dont think that the sarrisa was used for offense unless a military emergency was happening. an 18 foot spear held by one hand? have you tried to swing, parry, and stab at a target with one of those? i think the sarissa was used more as a defensive weapon. link up rows of them and keep them leveled.... cant break through. a smaller spear i can believe was offensive, maybe a ten footer max.

sorry if its too much guesswork, but its what comes across as being plausible to me.

[Paralus]

I dont think that the sarrisa was used for offense unless a military emergency was happening. an 18 foot spear held by one hand? have you tried to swing, parry, and stab at a target with one of those?

It is, at best, all pure speculation. We have not been left anything that “picturesâ€

[Sean Manning]

Does anyone our there have Information on Exact Sizes or weights of Sarrisa Fittings , Butts or Points ?? Pictures ? That is beyond What Connelly or Other sources have Written?? I recently Bought two ,(for my Modest collection of Weapons ) Swiss 16th century pikes .. and was Quite amazed once in hand , how easily they handled .. Now they are about 5 meteres Long , Ash Poled , and about 5 pounds ( sorry I do not know meteric ).. You can poke out a eye with one quite well ! The Sarrisa is thought to be longer .. heavier , and Of Course the Pikes have a Small Light Head , and a bare Butt . I would like to find enough Information to Replicate a Alexander period Sarrisa , and I simply am not up on the Known Facts .. I know one set of fittings is in the Athens Museum ?? Also has there been any more Information Published about if they where one piece of wood or Joined from two ?? Now I have seen the Pikes in hand ,its not a stretch to see that they could have been made in One Piece ?

Thanks,
Michael Pechacek Sr.

Reuben mentioned a Sekunda article which I haven't read, but have you read Peter Connolley's? I think it was from JRMES in the middle 1990s and was heavily critical of some early work There is no good evidence that they were made in two halves and joined (we have later pikes that long made from coppice-grown ash in one piece).

Re: the lack of pike or spear phalanxes in art, the interesting thing is that we have dozens of detailed pictures of pike blocks in sixteenth and seventeenth century art. The Greeks and Romans just don't seem to have gone in for depicting large blocks of troops drawn up in order.

[Hoplitesmores]

I got this from sword forum i think and translated it in Greek

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130 ... Arms/d.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130 ... Arms/c.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130 ... gramma.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130 ... Arms/b.jpg

the original in English has vanished or i cant find it

[Hypaspist]

Sean,
yes I have Read Skeined , Most of what he said I like , some small ideas not well thought out . I have to Presume he has not Really handled very many weapons in person ! Connolly , is a great Illustrator and Experimental Archeologist .. but I think he has reconstructed some things on rather flimsy evidence .. The Only evidence I saw about a Sleeve was a Find in Greece rather well pictured of a Butt and Sleeve and head .. some like Sekunda says are not a Sarrisa , I think because of the weight and type of Head . but how Knows , its not necessary to use a sleeve , but even could be a Repair method just as well.
I just want to know if there was any new , or older specific information , on Objects found , of possible Sarrisa connection . By the way I do not Agree with Sekunda's " Command Spear Hypothesis "
And Surely the Guy who wrote about holding a sarrisa with one hand is Joking :lol:
Michael Pechacek Sr..

[Hypaspist]

Sorry Guys .. Spell Check , turned SEKUNDA into SKEINED !! I have Read Sekunda's Article thanks to Mein Panzer ( Ruben )
Michael Pechacek Sr.