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Metal thickness in helmets
#16
The Romans did not produce cast iron helmets, so this line of discussion is a little off topic. At the risk of being pedantic does anyone have any thoughts on my proposition, repeated below:

Quote:I imagine that heating the metal for half a helmet bowl evenly would be easier than trying to heat the larger piece of metal for a combined one-piece bowl and neck guard evenly. Would this tend to make producing a helmet with even metallurgical characteristics (quenching for hardness etc) easier if it were a composite of smaller pieces?

That is, would a composite helmet composed of individually better metallurgically optimised components be inherently tougher, less liable to contain internal flaws, than a helmet raised in one piece - given contemporary technological constraints?
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#17
That depends heavily on the composition of the iron as well; roman iron, like all premodern iron until the 18th century at the absolute earliest, contains a lot of slag impurities. Roman armoring iron was considerably lower in carbon content than many modern low-carbon steels used by armourers today, though (Though not all! The ubiqutous "Indian maille" we all know and low is made from, as far as I've been able to see from my few metallographical samples, an almost entirely carbon-free iron; I have found only cold-worked ferrite structures in my 4 cross-sections, both across and along two rings) - it would have been easier to shape.

Smaller pieces are naturally always easier to work on than one large piece (as far as I know, bear in mind that I am at my very best a bad ironsmith) - of course, that does not mean that a skilled smith couldn't produce equivalent one-piece work to a less skilled several-pieces working smith.

Interesting information about the copper cheek piece, Tarbicus. I do not think it is all that uncommon - I've seen such things before - although pure copper is hardly an ideal metal, neither for casting or using as armour. But you take what you get.... Big Grin
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#18
I'll draw everyone's attention to this post by Mike Bishop, concerning segmentata plates and the Carlisle iron scale collar, and how there may have been iron casting involved.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 0847#60847
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#19
Quote:I'll draw everyone's attention to this post by Mike Bishop, concerning segmentata plates and the Carlisle iron scale collar, and how there may have been iron casting involved.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 0847#60847

If this is in reference to Fulford et.al's article (In defense of Rome ; a metallographic investigation of roman ferrous armour from northern Britain) they are not talking about cast iron in the process itself; they are talking about the possibility of the iron of the Carlisle Arm Guard (sample 1, ill. 1-2, page 246) having been made of iron (they reference two italian articles to similar possibilities from the late roman or early medieval period) that had been produced as pig/cast ("grey") iron a a by-product of the bloomery process and then decarburized before use. This is not the same as the 12th century examples; those were of blast furnace-produced cast iron where the entire produce had to be decarburized.

Since I couldn't find any references to this in Sims later 2004 edition of Iron for the Eagles I've assumed it is still uncertain as to precicely what the structures in the Carlisle I sample were caused by (as presented in the article they were rather ambigeous about that conclusion) . Did he volunteer anything at the promised JRMES/ROMEC?

I don't know of any european historical examples of this (possibly because nobody has been looking for it - decarburization has usually been associated with post blast furnace metallurgy) but there are japanese examples of bloomery cast iron "slags" being decarburized (David Scott has a number of great articles on just that) and I seem to recall some indian examples as well.

Overall, this is a field in which, to put it mildly, more work is needed. Just as Fulford et.al. praises roman iron purity in comparison to their neighbours and successors in the article above, Godfrey and Nie (2003, JAS: "A Germanic ultrahard carbon steel punch from the Late Roman Iron Age" - an interesting article that looks at the formation of steels by carburization or low-carbon steels from blooms rather than decarburization of cast iron) concludes that "the quality of germanic ironworking could be finer than what was known in the contemporary roman world" and suggests looking for advances in iron metallurgy outside the roman empire, in the germanic areas outside the Limes. Neither conclusion seem, to me, especially solid: the comparative material in both articles is simply too weak, as is the question as to how representative the samples examined really are. Archaeometallurgy will just have to soldier on with the empirical work; jumping to conclusions can go every which way.
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#20
Endre, I think it's another report not yet published?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#21
Quote:Endre, I think it's another report not yet published?

I know; but it's been over 20 months since he posted and there's been no new information. Mike's post is rather unspesific, after all - it's not entirely clear what Sims is trying to say from what Mike writes - has he reconstructed and then case-hardened iron scales from decarburized pig/cast iron as leftovers from the bloomery process? Is Sims saying the roman iron foundries were producing liquid pig iron wholescale and then decarburizing it later? The last would be a revolutionary discovery, and would beggar the question why all we have archaeologically (quite a lot) of imperial roman ironmaking remnants is of bloomery production; which is mainly solid-state (with some liquid byproducts, see above) - I don't think I know any metallurgist that would dare to make that claim just from the objects themselves.

There are some finds of grey cast iron remnants at some roman and romano-british bloomery sites in britain; Craddock and Lang wrote a 2005 article about it but two of the finds (two cast iron figures) were dismissed as forgeries; it cannot, of course, be entirely ruled out that there was some experimentation on smelting iron. But I believe that work will have to include more digging at such sites; a furnace capable of reaching the temperatures needed will leave a lot of traces. It would be great fun if it eventually was authenticated - another nail in the coffin of the theory of a technological break between late roman and medieval europe.
I'm just not very optimistic. There are a number of methodological problems with the analysis of premodern steels and irons, spesifically the fact that they tend to be extremely heterogenous and that simultaneously, most analysis is conducted on a very small number of samples, and often (as in the case of Williams' mammoth book and the Fulford article a very small part of each sample).

It'll be interesting. Hasn't anyone written any notes at the ROMEC Mike talks about? Fulford et.al's article from 2003 and Sims book from 2004 is so far all we have to go by right now.
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