300

[geala]

The Spartans adopted the pike and Macedonian drill only after 227 BC, so do you speak about the classical hoplite phalanx or (like Polybios) about the pike phalanx?

The pike phalanx did not have to rely heavily on the shields (peltai). I don't see any reason why a pila attack should be decisive. The perhaps 600 pila would have killed and wounded not few phalangites, but most would have a) missed or b) stuck in the shields. With no chance to flank and the necessary need of space to bring the sword into play the Romans would have had great difficulties even to come near the Phalangites. On the other hand the pike phalanx too would have had difficulties to gain victory. They could push back the Romans with ease (like at Pydna in the first stages of the battle) but when the Romans just retreated and did not break the problems would start when the landscape widens.

A classical phalanx of hoplites with aspides would have received nearly no casualties by a pila shower. But some of the aspides would have been without use if pila stuck in them, perhaps even pinning some shields together. Nevertheless it would be a 2:1 relation of actual fighters, the Romans with 4 cubits space, the Spartans with 2 cubits space a man. I think in the confined space of Thermopylae the Romans would have lost.

In the end in both cases it would have been a matter of moral and the classical Spartans were probably better in this than Roman militia counterparts (the Spartans of the 3rd/2nd c. BC were probably not). About the professionals of the principate I don't know, they didn't have to prove themselves against comparable foes.

May this discussion go on forevermore. :wink:

PS: at the end battle at Thermopylae 480 BC there were at least 1000 Greeks, not only Spartans. 8)

[Jona Lendering]

So, could you please clarify where in the passage do you see an implication that pila throwing is an advantage against a phalanx?

As far as I know, the legions started their advance to the enemy by throwing their missiles, trying to create disorder in the phalanx. You are right that Polybius does not really mention this, but the principle (a phalanx is only superior under certain circumstances) is there. As I said, it is only implied. But I admit that you need some imagination to see that what Polybius says about the terrain also applies for a rain of spears. Perhaps I am completely wrong about Polybius. Still, I think that a Roman army would be superior to a phalanx, because legionaries did not need to come close to the hoplites.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Uh, hoplite07....I think that it has been shown that the pass at Thermopylae CAN be outflanked.

Your implication is that 300 Romans would stand toe to toe, man to man, against 300 Spartans, and that the outcome would be a toss-up.

Sounds like poor tactics to me on the part of the Romans, who remembered their history and thus Cato's envelopment of the Seleucids.

I think that it would certainly be poor tactics for the Romans to engage 300 Spartans toe to toe without considering another envelopment with a portion of their 300.

[popularis]

For all of those who like to see history repeating itself [1], there's a lovely example of two modern armies, both of whom knew their classics, refighting an ancient battle. In WWII the British and ANZAC force decided to cover their retreat in Greece by fighting the 1941 Battle of Thermopylae.

Oh, all right, not a complete repeat of history. The Allies knew about the passes round the side, and had strong forces there, but still...

blue skies

Tom

[1] OK, so we all know history doesn't actually repeat itself...but it sometimes looks like it does

[hoplite07]

Uh, hoplite07....I think that it has been shown that the pass at Thermopylae CAN be outflanked.

Your implication is that 300 Romans would stand toe to toe, man to man, against 300 Spartans, and that the outcome would be a toss-up.

Sounds like poor tactics to me on the part of the Romans, who remembered their history and thus Cato's envelopment of the Seleucids.

I think that it would certainly be poor tactics for the Romans to engage 300 Spartans toe to toe without considering another envelopment with a portion of their 300.

Yeah, I know it can be outflanked by the pass that comes up behind them, but lets just say hypothetically that the Romans didnt know about that. Then it could go either way Imo. The Spartans might even most likely take it because of their training and loyalty to warfare.

[hoplite07]

PS: at the end battle at Thermopylae 480 BC there were at least 1000 Greeks, not only Spartans. 8)

Yeah, I know that as well, but lets just say the Spartans alone are fighting, all 300 of them and Leonidas against 300 Legionnaires. The pass cannot be used, or they simply do not know about it.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Well, not sure I agree with you on your assertion that the Spartans would necessarily win this hypothetical engagement you propose, but concede that if you narrow down the scope of the action to 300 vs 300 with no possibility of tactical maneuver -- a slugfest -- then the issue would be a toss-up whose outcome would be determined by a host of factors, fog and friction being two of them.

Edge

[P. Clodius Secundus]

OTOH, a modern Roman army with artillery, well, we know how that would go. :lol:

What an image that brings to mind :twisted: .... a one-talent ballista at zero elevation. Just like bowling without the funny shoes! "Hey Brutus, betcha' can't pick up the 7-10 split!"

[Caius Fabius]

I am wondering what is the mission of the different forces, do they have time limits? What is the weather like? The supply situation....? Which side has the most food? Who has access to drinkable water?

Leonidas is the Spartan commander, but who is the Roman commander?
Gaius Marius, Julius Caesar, Scipio Africanus?

When is sunrise? Sunset? Which group has the sun in their eyes most?
What is the temperature?

Republican Romans?
Marian Romans?
Vespasian's Romans
Constantine's Romans?''

:lol:

[PMBardunias]

What an image that brings to mind .... a one-talent ballista at zero elevation. Just like bowling without the funny shoes! "Hey Brutus, betcha' can't pick up the 7-10 split!"

This was tried by the Spartans at Mantinea against the Achean league. The Acheans rushed the slow firing ballista and seem to have nullified them.

My two cents worth is that the hoplite phalanx is the near ideal formation for bottling up a pass. To the Spartans the Romans would just have been over-armored peltasts. The gladius lacked the reach of the dory and would have proven inferior to the laconian dagger in the close and dirty if the spartans could press them into anyting like an othismos. The one roman advantage was the tactical ability to relieve the front line and perhaps wear them down over time.

Of course the Romans would never have attacked them from the front and in any real battle the romans would probably win in the same way they beat sarissaphoroi.

[PMBardunias]

Polybius actually reveals how raised pikes of the rows 6-16 protect the phalanx from the falling javelins.

This passage always puzzles me. Unless the sarissa is held almost touching the heads of the men in ranks 1-6, I don't see how the front men could be protected. Pila coming in at something like a 45 degree angle should go in below the rear sarissa. They could of course protect the rear ranks, but I have often seen this protection discussed in terms of the whole phalanx.

[Sardaukar]

What would be the capability of pilum to pierce shield used by Spartans in Thermopylae-times ? And what was the defensive cover given by same shield ?

I take that Spartan spear might not been as long as to require both hands, unlike "degenerated" phalanx Romans faced later.

[PMBardunias]

What would be the capability of pilum to pierce shield used by Spartans in Thermopylae-times ? And what was the defensive cover given by same shield ?

That's a difficult question to answer without some testing, but I will say that the aspis, hoplite shield, is suprisingly thin and famously penetrated on occasion. Brasidas the Spartiate was wounded through his shield when it "betrayed" him.

They covered from collar to thigh. This protection could be extended by affixing a leather apron to the bottom of the shield as seen in many images.

[Iagoba]

I found a loss of time the "X Vs. Y" fictional matches...
What about, for example, the Pope´s Panzers against Esparta?