Gladius... quality vs. authenticity

[Caius Victricius Verus]

I've read several points of view on the subject going way back, but still haven't been able to draw a conclusion based on the options and opinions I've seen. Some people argue that a deepeka mainz gladius is one of the closest in terms of authenticity, but doubts have been raised as to whether it would hold up if it had to be functional. There are better blades such as those by Albion and Mark Marrow, but those are using modern tool steel; while being high quality are not authentic materials.

Are there blades that conform to both the standards of authenticity of design AND material available anywhere? I know, I won't be actually using a gladius to cleave someone into little pieces, yet having a blade that is period accurate and knowingly truly "battle worthy" in the true sense of the words would ad that extra dimension of realism to the impression, don't you think?

A blade with the design accuracies of say a Deepeka, but the proper metals (high/low carbon steel) with full tang and construction of a battle-ready blade.

Yes, there is the "accuracy to within reason" argument, but it just doesn't make sense to me to stickle on the material types of garments and cloaks, yet totally ignore weapons and armor on the same note.

Thoughts and/or suggestions??

[Virilis]

Noel, I share your opinions "to the hilt"! I have a Deepeeka gladius and also a Kris Cutlery gladius. Kris Cutlery gladius is not accurate in appearance (the scabbard, the grip, the brass plate on the quard) but if I would be able to show both of them to the genuine leginary there is no question which one is a "proper gladius" for him....

This is a tough nut to crack ...

[Caius Victricius Verus]

I mean, it can't be THAT hard for vendors that make quality blades already - to forge quality blades in proper historical metals, is it? High grade tool steel is great and all, but it's not period accurate and I really don't need the capability to cleave the barrel off a tank.

[Neuraleanus]

If you can afford it, it's only 1400 Euros:

[url:9e4u4lp3]http://www.hr-replikate.de/englisch/index.html[/url]

Both the Albion and Mark Morrow blades are good compromises.

[arklore70]

Noel,
Matt Lukes and I have had some great disscussion off line on this topic. There is a book called either Iron or Steel for the Eagles I think, that goes into depth on composition of Roman blades, weapons, armor, etc...

The short of it is it is hard to replicate a Roman blade; you would have to obtain raw iron ore and completely replicate the process that they used. Anything short of that, and more than likely you are looking to have a much better quality of metal in the blade. To paraphrase Matt Lukes, most steel and iron up till about the Industrial Revolution would make a modern foundaryman cry.

In essence, most steels used in modern reproduced blades is superior to what the Romans would have been able to replicate in mass. This is not to say that they did not produce some very well made blades ( balance, feel, weight), just that on the metalurgical aspects of it, just about anything made today will be superior.

If you want it to be 100% authentic ,to include the metalurgical aspects of it, it will not come cheap and I am not sure if I know of anyone here in the U.S. that does it. Modern companies and smiths just dont see the economic reason to do it normally. Not enough demand.

Mark Morrow makes one heck of a awesome blade in appearance, but he uses 5160 tool steel. Balnence is awesome also.

Albion makes a heck of a good gladius, but they use 5160 steel.

If you are looking for accuracy in appearance, then custom work from Artists like Matt Lukes is spot on for hilt work and scabbard work.

If you are looking for good appearance, but don't have time to wait and not a lot of funds then Deepeeka has come a long way with its gladii. Find-It makes a nice Fulham, and Keltica is suppossed to come out with a Fulham in the future that is suppossed to be very acurate in appearance.

IMHO with 5160 steel, you gain a bit of a over engineered blade, of superior metalurgical quality though you really don't lose out on appearance.

If you were looking to test performance characteristics of a Roman Blade, then you might want to look at more pure reproduced blade.

V/r
Mike

[Magnus]

I've read several points of view on the subject going way back, but still haven't been able to draw a conclusion based on the options and opinions I've seen. Some people argue that a deepeka mainz gladius is one of the closest in terms of authenticity, but doubts have been raised as to whether it would hold up if it had to be functional. There are better blades such as those by Albion and Mark Marrow, but those are using modern tool steel; while being high quality are not authentic materials.

Here's the thing. We're not Romans. Unless you are filthy, filthy rich you're just going to have to make compromises. Second, you simply do not need a fully functional personal weapon. Especially if by chance some of your events involve members of the public (or people you don't like..bahahaha!). When you have a sharpened, edged weapon the chances of injury by accident increase dramatically. If you want a sword to practice cutting, then go for a morrow or albion blade.

Oh, and deepeeka uses likely whatever is handy in terms of steel, and it's definately modern.

Are there blades that conform to both the standards of authenticity of design AND material available anywhere?

Any of the afore mentioned companies/smiths, as well as SoTW and Find-It Armoury's brands of gladii. May need a bit of tweaking, but for the price of each you're getting pretty good quality. Remember, you need to determine what is authentic enough for you, while keeping your mindset realistic.

I know, I won't be actually using a gladius to cleave someone into little pieces, yet having a blade that is period accurate and knowingly truly "battle worthy" in the true sense of the words would ad that extra dimension of realism to the impression, don't you think?

Not really, to be honest lol. Everything for the most part you are talking about is personal frame of mind. If your gear is pretty good then your impression is pretty good. There is simply not much of a requirement for reenactors to have working weapons UNLESS it's vital to the impression (ACW, WW I & II for example). For something simple like a gladius (and not a scorpio), functionality should fall way, way behind look and authenticity. Remember, this is all psychological...

Yes, there is the "accuracy to within reason" argument, but it just doesn't make sense to me to stickle on the material types of garments and cloaks, yet totally ignore weapons and armor on the same note.

No...i think you're missing the point. Reasonable is using steel that was mined in N. America, smelted in a foundry and sold from an online company. It's not a Roman Mine, it wasn't procured in the same way, but we make allowances for things like that. That goes from everything we wear and use from head to toe. Some people are able to go the extra mile with certain pieces of gear, if they have the skill/time/money. Others aren't, and so they purchase what they can and fix it to their ability. This is perfectly acceptable.

By all means, raise the bar as high as you want. But please understand it's nearly impossible to get 100% accuracy. What's available that is generally accepted by the well-experienced and respected members of reenactment groups is a good guide to use. Especially if they're making gear and selling it, or own a company that sells goods.

Remember, about everything we do in this particular hobby is a compromise at some level. Best get used to it lol.

[Gaius_Calvus]

As usual, I agree with everything Magnus/Matt has said.

You do the best you can with what is available, being mindful that you don't tell the public that "this is exactly what the Romans used."

I think that, like Matt, most of try to get as close as we can given affordability combined with a little common sense.

Regards,

Edge

[Caius Victricius Verus]

That was a really good explanation Magnus, Thanks for the detail. I hope you didn't take the questions as too critique, as they are strictly sincere

To elaborate on one point, I should have went on to say that it would be nice if a company could make a blade with the quality of craftsmanship of a Mark Marrow, but using low/high-carbon mild steel instead of 5160 steel. I do understand that making a blade 100% authentic down to the ore composition would be near impossible, obviously.

That's all

[Magnus]

That was a really good explanation Magnus, Thanks for the detail. I hope you didn't take the questions as too critique, as they are strictly sincere

To elaborate on one point, I should have went on to say that it would be nice if a company could make a blade with the quality of craftsmanship of a Mark Marrow, but using low/high-carbon mild steel instead of 5160 steel. I do understand that making a blade 100% authentic down to the ore composition would be near impossible, obviously.

That's all

No worries dude! You'll find your ideas and perspectives will change in this hobby the more you read, the more you build, the more people you meet and talk to them. And that's a good thing...keeps things nice and fresh! And don't ever worry about sounding off base...we were all beginners at one point. Just worry if you've been at it for 5 years and asking the same questions :lol:

The only problem with having a production company make an authentic blade of high quality is that the price goes up. They usually want to avoid that...though it's nice to have the options there if you want custom/semi-custom.

On that note, I am willing to bet that you can find someone that will do what you want. I'd even throw Mark an email asking him if he'd make one out of 1020 mild steel. I bet he would! And his prices are more than reasonable.

BTW, christmas is coming...you can always treat yourself.

And Edge hit the nail on the head with this: "You do the best you can with what is available, being mindful that you don't tell the public that "this is exactly what the Romans used."

That's it in a nutshell...aim for the stars...hit the stratosphere, and explain the differences.

[Tarbicus]

I should have went on to say that it would be nice if a company could make a blade with the quality of craftsmanship of a Mark Marrow, but using low/high-carbon mild steel instead of 5160 steel. I do understand that making a blade 100% authentic down to the ore composition would be near impossible, obviously.

The problem here is have you seen the amount of times people slag off poorer quality blades (especially Deepeeka), and praise the Albion/Morrow blades? I don't see how a manufacturer can win, to be honest. I also think over-engineering can create a false impression of the capabilities, BTW, and that includes helmets, cuirasses, etc. - As Mike Bishop says on the seg, something like; "Designed by a genius, thrown together by a monkey."

[Ironhand]

Perhaps every legion could have an adopt a smith program?
Hey most of the Viking Age groups have their own smiths, why can't Roman groups.

[Matt Lukes]

I definitely think, meaning no offense to Mark or Albion, that a regular commercial blade made of mild steel, providing its shape is correct, is the best choice because it's as close to a REAL Roman sword as one can get. Talk about 'battle worthiness' doesn't make any sense since clearly even lesser quality steel than our rather good mild stuff worked for them for what- 1200 or so years? EMPIRES were built with these weapons- high-carbon, tempered blades are a very late invention historically-speaking.

The perfection of high-end swords is another major issue- they just don't look ancient in the least; straight, perfectly flat edges, etc. look machine-made, not hammered out by a smith. So there are two major drawbacks- price not even considered- to these blades vs. an inexpensive commercial one. Really there's nothing wrong with a full-tang commercial blade with respect to quality- they're not badly-made, and the little ripples and minor imperfections ironically make them much more authentic- just remove the silly mirror-polished finish and you've got an excellent solider's weapon.

Until I can make my own swords, the gladius I use is a corrected commercial one myself...

[brennivs - tony drake]

For me and I agree with the comments so far as you can not go wrong with mild steel,all the finds show a wide range of iron with various carbon contents.So you must think and fight with it like a Roman non of this blade on blade, hence they is no real need to have a high carbon content .Plus the expense to the army to have them made.It is down to what you want to do with it,If I make a blade I see what it is to be used for first then offer a choice of materials for the blade. The problem is the after sale of the item, not all groups have armourers on hand to fix things, so I have to be thought full on what I make does not come apart as the origonals did( handy that each Legion had handfuls of guys to fix things which must have been never ending ) As Matt says if the blade is the right shape/size the material is what you want, cheap or expensive, which to me every soldier had a choice to choose.
Regards Brennivs

[brennivs - tony drake]

Here is a few pics as you can see with the material they is very little difference unless you tell the public what they are made from

Mild Steel.

Stainless on top Chrom Carbon bottom.

Mild Steel.
Regards Brennivs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmm, I like that chrom carbon blade....