Jumping right in: tunica clavii............

[Sub-Roman Britannia Enthu]

Ok,

I have decided I'm gonna jump right into doing Late Roman Living History this coming year. Nothing like just taking the plunge and doing it in my experience. I'm going to see about contacting the local Roman reenactors (they're organized in Orlando, I think its XII Fulminata) and seeing if they have a Late Roman unit or can accept stragglers. I figured a 5th Century Limitanei would suffice for my impression, probably a native or a foederate. Hopefully I'll be ready by September at the latest.

Two of the biggest problems are getting the time off (I work full time on weekends) and how exactly to add the common decorative motifs to my clothing. I'm already getting ready to purchase some wool crepe for making a tunic (red w/black trim) and trousers (plain dark brown). Anyone know if there are any dealers that have clavii patterns etc?

Figured I would have to buy some undyed wool strips to use for the wraps/putees. As for a cloak, I'm leaning towards a dark colour. No clue on how to either make a pannonian pill box hat or where to acquire one (lets be honest, I suck at sewing anyway).

For the rest I'll buy a belt and baldric, spatha and see about getting a shield with a boss (no clue where to get a late roman pattern shield). A pouch for my belt and some small items like comb, wooden bowl, cup would round out my gear starting. That would be my 'basic' kit. Some of this stuff I'm probably going to order from Jelling Dragon and By the Sword.

Eventually, down the line I'll acquire a spear, a mail shirt (dagged pattern mild steel with riveted links) and an Intercisa-type helmet. Since those are bigger ticket items, they'll have to wait some. I've been checking out The Ring Lord site to see about making my own mail shirt as opposed to buying a predesigned one. Should be cheaper if somewhat time consuming.

Hopefully my 8 years of experience with American Civil War reenacting will come in handy. I'll try not to get mad at the stitch counters. :wink:

[Ioannes Vandalicus]

for the shield pattern, check Notitia Dignitatum, for example here

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson ... terns.html

and for the pannonian cap, it is extremely easy to make it, don´t worry. Even I made it... in just two hours

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi David,

Welcome to the ranks of the Late Roman army!

First of all, decide what you want to be and when. I would personally go for the 4th rathan the 5th c., simply because we have much more information about the 4th c.

Then, what to get first. If you not filthy rich this takes time. I made the mistake of wanting to buy a sword and armour first, and I spent a lot of money unwisely. Take your time, ask around, start with basics.

1) is always clothing.

First a tunic, best go for unbleached linen. Or thin wool, but when you don't know what feels best, it's easy to end up with an itchy hot tunic - not comfortable. Besides, linen is more forgiving when you wash it.

You also need a good belt with that, but here, too, best use a simple one if you're not sure what you like or what's available.
Go at fist for simple monochrome clavi (which btw is the plural of clavus) and segmentae (squares) or orbiculi (roundels). If you don't have that much time, don't go for perfection - for a handsewn tunic with patterned decoration you'll need 100-200 hrs. work.

If you have a good, knee-length tunic you don't even need trousers right away, but if you want to have them straight away, I think they're the most difficult part of your attire. Mine were all made at home.

if you wear trousers, you don't need leg wrappings/puttees, they are for bare legs. However, feminalia are a great way to prevent your trousers getting dirty.

Also a sagum, which is easy - a woolen rectangle of about 3 x 2 m would do fine. Again, not too thick wool. A fibula from ray Moseley is good enough - you can always get the siver one later.

Head gear - if you want a pilleus, buy the one Adrian is offering! If you're a later federate, don't bother.

Finally, shoes. Barefoot is possible, but not comfortable, but you may not have a good source for Late Roman shoes nearby. This is always tricky, my first pair was (still is) a pair of adapted medieval shoes, not very accurate. You could go for cheap caligae or simple 'Iron Age shoes'to tie you over until you can get a 'real' pair.

With shoes come socks - ask your granny (or anyone who can knit) to make you a multi-coloured pair. Going for a costly naalbound pair is for later when you're getting near to that 'perfect' status. :wink:

2) is arms, you're a soldier after all.

First a spear, this is your basic arm, a good sturdy one. Buy a spearhead if you can't make one, a simple shaft can be bought everywhere.

Next a shield, buy a good umbo and make the shield yourself - first a flat one to practise with, which you can later use for practise!
http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/makescutum.htm

It's tempting to go for a sword soon, which you can do if you know a good one for a good price. But remember that then you also need to get a good scabbard, and with that a good baldric, and a matching good belt... Also, swords became more and more rare (especially for later limitanei and foederati).

The rest is all optional: knife, semispatha, bow, manuballista...

3) armour, the stuff that makes you look good. A hamata is good basic armour, which you can also use in other periods. A helmet is not always needed (federates were not rich), but you can get basic helmets cheap - if you want a good one it's something to save up for!

4) tidbits. A pouch, comb, wooden bowl, cup, purse, replica coins, fire gear, etc, etc.

Good luck!

[Peroni]

If you have a good, knee-length tunic you don't even need trousers right away, but if you want to have them straight away, I think they're the most difficult part of your attire. Mine were all made at home.

Thorsberg trousers are available ready made!
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... =574&c=151

Also..

http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... =579&c=151

And from the same supplier .. winningas..
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... =546&c=151

Head gear - if you want a pilleus, buy the one Adrian is offering!

Yes, please do! :wink:
Black or brown persian lambskin..
http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... cts_id=136

http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... cts_id=133

We can also supply a lot of late Roman belt components and crossbow brooches, spears, helmets, armour (including greaves).

[Carlton Bach]

Thorsberg trousers are available ready made!
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... =574&c=151

WT... Thorsberg is dated to 1000 AD? hock:

[Peroni]

I know! :roll:

[Bran ap Maclou]

Hello, welcome into the tardive and subroman family

About the thorsberg trousers beware, they often crack under the bottom, that's a common problem so lot of reenactors prefer "gallic bracae" even if I still have a thorsberg, I had to modify the pattern.

So, i erased the socks, then the green lines are my adaptation cos' I'm quite athletic and short :roll: . The red stars are the weak points where it often cracks. I made them with linen.


You see what I mean.

[Bran ap Maclou]

About tunicas now :

[Bran ap Maclou]

I can also advise you to watch these few links.

http://sammlungen.mak.at/maksdbweb/servlet/search.state ?
http://www.calacademy.org/research/anthropology/coptic/
Saint-Mena as Roman officer : ivory, 6th, Milan, Museo del Castello Sforzesco


Also, this book is wonderful, I don't know if there are some english translations ?


[g]Tissus Coptes[/g]
Marie-Hélène Rutschowscaya
Belle reliure: 159 pages
Editeur : Adam Biro (25 septembre 2000)
Collection : Textures
Langue : Français
ISBN-10: 2876600641
ISBN-13: 978-2876600645


Bye

[Sub-Roman Britannia Enthu]

First a tunic, best go for unbleached linen. Or thin wool, but when you don't know what feels best, it's easy to end up with an itchy hot tunic - not comfortable. Besides, linen is more forgiving when you wash it.

Wool crepe is the best I've found. Like I said, 8 yrs of Civil War gave me quite enough experience with cotton-based textiles vs wool here in Florida. Wool is MUCH better here because of the humidity. The crepe is thin enough. Washing will be a pain, thats true. :wink:

Go at fist for simple monochrome clavi (which btw is the plural of clavus) and segmentae (squares) or orbiculi (roundels). If you don't have that much time, don't go for perfection - for a handsewn tunic with patterned decoration you'll need 100-200 hrs. work.

Hmm.....

If you have a good, knee-length tunic you don't even need trousers right away, but if you want to have them straight away, I think they're the most difficult part of your attire. Mine were all made at home.

I'm gonna fall back on some of my reenactor contacts. I know more than one seamstress. Sure, it will not be mostly hand sewn per se, but the amount of abuse it will withstand will be greater than hand sewn.

A fibula from ray Moseley is good enough - you can always get the siver one later.

Hmm, speaking of jewelry, what about arm rings? I'm not quite poor anymore, but then again, I ain't got money to throw down the drain so to speak. :lol:

Finally, shoes. Barefoot is possible, but not comfortable, but you may not have a good source for Late Roman shoes nearby.

Never could stand to reenact without boots. I am a Federal Soldier after all (or I was I should say :wink: ). Besides, less likelihood of getting nasty virii like the kind that cause ringworm and plantar warts. Been there, done that, don't wanna do it again. :lol: I'm going for the Enclosed High Boots from By the Sword.

With shoes come socks - ask your granny (or anyone who can knit)

Hehe, again, my reenactor buddies will be getting some business from me. :wink: I saw a pattern somewhere (I think COMITATVS) to use.

First a spear, this is your basic arm, a good sturdy one. Buy a spearhead if you can't make one, a simple shaft can be bought everywhere.

By the Sword has ash poles for spears. The biggest problem is which spear head to get.

3) armour, the stuff that makes you look good. A hamata is good basic armour, which you can also use in other periods. A helmet is not always needed (federates were not rich), but you can get basic helmets cheap - if you want a good one it's something to save up for!

Figured I would wait til I got my mail shirt assembled before I bought an Intercisa. Speaking of which, how the bloody heck do you remove the high polish from a helmet? I would imagine not too many looked that nice after only a few weeks either in the field, or even after a few months of off and on garrison duty along Hadrian's Wall.

4) tidbits. A pouch, comb, wooden bowl, cup, purse, replica coins, fire gear, etc, etc.

Jelling Dragon seems to have the best stuff I've seen so far to add little 'bits' to a kit.

[Hugh Fuller]

You may wish to check with La Wrens Nest. They have a pair of Late Roman tunics that look pretty good and I have always been very happy with their service. One tunic does w/o clavi and such but has arm trim and hem trim. The other has clavi and square whatevers. They also sell a woolen Pannonian Cap, one of which I have. But I am really thinking of ordering one of the ones from Peroni as they look just wonderful.
http://www.lawrensnest.com/tunics.html


I have a blue tunic that I designed and a friend made. It has dark blue shoulder doubling, clavi, and orbiculi with two interlaced red squares in them making a sort of eight-pointed star. She did the squares in outilne form in a chain stitch after we had determined that the chain stitch had been used in the 4th Century.

I have a set of the Depeeka high Roman boots and, with hindsight, would have preferred the low boots. La Wrens Nest sells both. Avoid the ones from Museum Replicas as they have a heel on them and do not hold up worth a darn. Look at the bottom of this page.
http://www.lawrensnest.com/accessories.html

Raymond's Quiet Press sells some very nice bronze belt pieces for mounting on a leather belt. I have used them on several belts for various purposes and can vouch for them.
http://www.quietpress.com/Roman_Brooche ... lt_Fi.html

As to a sword, I wish you luck. I lucked into ordering mine from Patrick Barta before he became so popular and I waited only six months for it. His wait is now three years and he is also rather more expensive. I got his # 102 Roman Riding Sword and it works out very well as a very Late Roman spatha as well as a Migration Era sword.
http://www.templ.net/english/weapons-an ... le_age.php

I hope that some of this helps.

[Robert Vermaat]

If you have a good, knee-length tunic you don't even need trousers right away, but if you want to have them straight away, I think they're the most difficult part of your attire. Mine were all made at home.

Thorsberg trousers are available ready made!
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... =574&c=151

I forgot about those! Thanks Ade.

[Robert Vermaat]

About tunicas now :
Here are some boards I made mainly from Ospreys to get a first idea about what is existing.
http://pic.aceboard.net/img/12392/5951/1187338909.jpg

Ah, but watch out, those with the single large clavus are 6th c.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi David,

Hmm, speaking of jewelry, what about arm rings? I'm not quite poor anymore, but then again, I ain't got money to throw down the drain so to speak. :lol:

I haven't searched for any as yet...

I'm going for the Enclosed High Boots from By the Sword.

For that money there must be better ones, not those from Deepeka. Have yoy seen these from Sarah Juniper?
http://www.sarahjuniper.co.uk/roman.html If you want calcei those are a lot better!

By the Sword has ash poles for spears. The biggest problem is which spear head to get.

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=17738

Figured I would wait til I got my mail shirt assembled before I bought an Intercisa. Speaking of which, how the bloody heck do you remove the high polish from a helmet? I would imagine not too many looked that nice after only a few weeks either in the field, or even after a few months of off and on garrison duty along Hadrian's Wall.

Forget to clean it after an event? Also, oil it with olive oil and it will become better protected but less shiny.

[Robert Vermaat]

You may wish to check with La Wrens Nest. They have a pair of Late Roman tunics that look pretty good and I have always been very happy with their service. One tunic does w/o clavi and such but has arm trim and hem trim. The other has clavi and square whatevers.
http://www.lawrensnest.com/tunics.html

I would not recommend them.
While #RTU2004 has a few decorative bands it has not orbiculi/segmentae, and the sleeves are WAY too wide!
#RTU2005 seems copied from a drawing that I know, but the body seems very narrow (which is one of the problems I had with their tunics) - Late Roman tunics are wide in the body and narrow in the sleeves. But maybe it´s the picture.