hello!..and advice on greaves?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

First of all,i think you can feel sure nobody got offended.The "anxiety" was mostly on the idea of someone relying on what seems logical,rather than archaeologyand art,to make his reenacting,and not about the greeks' incapability in metal working.
Concerning thigh and arm guards.Open your Connolly book on pages 45,97and 103. In the first two case you see how the thigh guards were satying in place by themselves.The same is depicted in various bronze statuettes and vase paintings.The example you mentioned,you have to see the real one to besure it couldn't wrap the thigh.And I don't exclude the possibility that it was straped,though there are no signs of rings,hooks,rivets or anything.Beware,the hoplite statuette in the left is wearing thigh,lower arm and possibly upper arm guards.To my knowlege,there are no sighns of any sraps in any part of his equipment.
Now compare them wth the numbers 10 and 11 on page 103.You can see clearly they had straps.But they are not greek,nor of greek style.The greave next to them has no straps.It is italian,byt in the Greek style.
There is no answer if the greaves were inherited or not.Armour was important in Greece,like in many other cultures.One may had given a respectful ammount of money to buy proper equipment.Today,it's difficult to buy a sports car in your 20s or a house.But throughout your life you may gather all those good things.A hoplite fough till his 50s.
I'm taller than my father,thinner and with different body type.However,i have almost the same hight with my grand father.The same body type and anatomy.We even look alike.If his greaves were in good condition I ma have worn them.What i know,is that if I was ashamed for some reason,I wouldn't present myself to my fellow warriors.It was all a matter of impression.
Kyrus the younger went in battle without helmet(and died).How about that?You can't put yourself in their minds,I can't either,it was a different world.
Now straped greaves.I can't find sufficient evidence they existed in Greece in 500bc. But I know previously and later existed.And many cultures around them were using them.Obviously,you want to wear your greaves,and to do that,you have to attach them tightly.As I said,I'd do something similar to the Campanian greaves (p109).It is about a century off but it is smart,small,on greaves almost identical to classical examples from Greece,and similar to how the Greeks tied other parts of their armour-cuirasses with rings.
Khaire
Giannis

[Matthew Amt]

No offense taken at all! And I hope I gave none.

Pericles of Rhodes\\n[quote]I’m not sure what you mean by my “quaint old ideasâ€

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Thigh guards are a wonderful mystery to me! NO idea how they might have been made to stay in place, especially since the thigh tends to taper downwards. Can't help thinking that there had to be a certain amount of discomfort involved... Kinda like high heels--look great, but not much good in a foot race!

Yes,they are mysterious indeed.I thought they might have been hung from the cuirass or with straps from the waist,but there is no evidence about this,the contrary.I suppose they had to put a big ammount of pressure on the thigh to stay there.And they can do this better than the greaves,because wou can wear them like trouser,passing your foot through the thigh guard and not having to open it like the greave.And again it had to fit perfectly.
That specific example that George mentioned is even stranger.It doesn't seem to wrap the whole leg,like the statuettes and the vases show.And it covers the knee,too :!: If it covered the knee and went all the way around the thigh,the man could not bend the knee.But this is the exception.All other thight guards are a good deal above the knee.
Arm guards,i believe were not a big problem,as the arm is usually raised,holding the spear up,so it wouldn't normally fall downwards.But I'm sure they fitted so perfectly that whatever you did they stayed in place.
Khaire
Giannis

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Hi everyone!

Sorry to raise this topic from the dead but after looking at various vase paintings and a visit to the British Museum I have noticed that many paintings of hoplites wearing greaves have the back of their calves exposed at the edge, to back, of the greave (like the one attached). I know there are a few vase paintings out there that show the clip on type encircling the leg completely at the back, but most vase paintings show only the side of the leg and many, like this one from the British museum, show the greave stopping before it gets right around the leg. Why is this?

If you look at the picture I have attached it shows that the greave this hoplite is wearing exposes all of the back of the hoplite’s calf (which protrudes out from them at the back) except for a small section at, and above, the ankle. Even if the greave was tightly sprung onto the leg no amount of elasticity could keep the greave on in battle gripping only the ankle!

The picture is of the recovery of Helen and is a black figured neck-amphora made in Athens about 520 BC (now in the British Museum)

Comments and views are welcome.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ah,no worries.This is what real ones actually look like in profile.It just indicates that they close by the bronze's elasticity. In thigh guards it's even more strange,though I've not seen accurate reproductins of thigh guards,to know what they look like and how they stay on.Have a look in this photo.What happens i think is that the bronze presses the muscle,in order to stay tight on the leg,and allows it to be exposed.
http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 7_004a.jpg
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

A feedback from the N. Greek Colonies.

The Krasnodar Museum (south Russia) has examples of grieves with straps.
Reconstructed initially by Gorelic and illustrated by A. Mc Bride in Osprey's Skythians.
Put my wife to run a search in the Russian web pages. Yes there were references of strapped grieves of Greek workmanship but no concrete evidence if they were tailor made for rich Scythian clients or also used by colonist hoplites.

Kind regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks for the explanation Giannis! D idea:

Yes there were references of strapped grieves of Greek workmanship

The Krasnodar Museum (south Russia) has examples of grieves with straps

Hi Stefanos! That’s very interesting about these Greek made strapped greaves. I presume these are not the Scythian type greaves made of strips of metal? These seem to have been tied at the back; but as you say they are Scythian greaves of Greek workmanship I presume these are not the native design, with metal strips, but the clip plate greaves as in Greece. This is very reminiscent of the Thracian greaves described in Christopher Webber’s book (see my first post).

I haven’t got the Osprey Scythians book unfortunately and the only illustration I have from it shows only the strip metal Scythian type greaves.

If you could PM me a copy of the picture in question and post/PM me the information you have on this I would greatly appreciate it! have you got a link to the sites or are they all in Russian? A time period and where it was discovered/context would be good to know! it's very interesting and i look forward to hearing more!

Thank you both for all your help!

[hoplite14gr]

I will try to digitize the osprey artwork.
The sites on the Krasnodar Museum were only in Russian (at least 2 days ago). My wife translated for me but there were no pics of the original grieves.
Perhaps they have updated. I do not know.

Kind regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

I look forward to seeing it. Thank you!

Could you send me a link to the websites you found the information on too (even if they are in russian )?

I am very interested in any info you've got on these greaves! Hope to hear from you soon!

[hoplite14gr]

From the grave of Tolstaya Mogila near Ordonikitze. Believed to be made by Greek smiths. Unknown if used only by Skythians or by Pontic/Tavric colonist heavy infantry.
Kind regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks for the picture, and for bringing the greaves to my attention. A well deserved lauds for you!


What time period where these greaves from and what context where they found in? Was anything found with them in the grave?
Could you post/pm me the links to the websites you found it from?

If they are late or Hellenistic greaves it is not such an unusual find as I believe Alexander’s troops and Hellenistic troops after him wore greaves fastened with straps in a similar way to this, but if it is earlier (5th c classical) then it is very interesting! The closest e.gs of strapped greaves are 4th Century so anything earlier than that would be very interesting!

[hoplite14gr]

Date is 4th century B.C.
I believe that various styles coexisted at any given time.
Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

George,I think if we had a picture of your existing greaves we would probably be able to give more apropriate advice on how they could be fixed.