Braccae and Feminalia

[M. Demetrius]

All right. How was the fly opening constructed? I have wrestled with the whole concept long enough to believe there WAS such a construction, and that it meant you didn't have to loosen the Balteus, raise the tunic, unbelt or untie the top of the braccae, and possibly the tie on the tunic, lower the braccae, and negotiate whatever there was on the subligarium, just to urinate. How many hands would it take to hold all the clothing out of the way? It would take longer to dress and undress than do the deed.

Sorry ladies, but that's about the most delicate way to say all the above.

So what do you think? Just an open seam? A button or toggle? A fly facing like on modern trousers? I know how they did it on later centuries, after the codpiece was no longer used, but how about our era? Same issue with Celt/Germanic braccae. One illustration I've seen shows what LOOKS like a fly, but has no explanation. Osprey's Rome's Enemies (1) Germanics and Dacians pg 5 shows what looks like the Thorsburg model, but no description in the text.

Ideas?

[Bran ap Maclou]

Yep !

The Thorsberg pattern has a V-shape just above the pubis. So It's enough to "piss" hock: .

For the "heavy affair" :oops: , well, it's still a mess ... the easier way is to mount your cingulum on the chest with the lower edge of tunica blocked inside inside. Then you push down your braccae and that do the trick ! :roll:

regards

[Caballo]

Or as an alternative single trousered hose as per early Saxons?

[Tarbicus]

Why not just pull 'em down? You'd get used to it. Come on, if women can wear pantyhose...

added: How did the vikings, normans, etc, do it?

[M. Demetrius]

Why not just pull 'em down? You'd get used to it

That part doesn't bother me, it's all those other things like the apron straps, tunic belt, subligarium edges, tunic hem, and remembering that caligae are not mud boots, and your feet can get wet (always remember to point your toes downhill, of course)...then the reverse of subligaria, drawstring in the braccae, tunic tie, balteus, check for odd parts of brass that have fallen off apron straps or belt, etc., snug up gladius...Naah. I'm putting a fly in 'em and that's final. Authentic or not.

Or as an alternative single trousered hose as per early Saxons?

I'm not even going to ask! Besides, I have two long legs, and single trousered hose would simply not work. :oops: :lol:

[Tarbicus]

But can't you just pull up the tunic by the hem, which rolls up and gathers everything together, trap that with your arms and do the diddly deed?

[M. Demetrius]

Ok, without going into MORE detail, or posting any pictures, hock: :oops: let me just say that the drawstring and waistband of the braccae are above the balteus, and under the tunic, which usually has its own narrow belt or lightweight cord. Since I'm pretty sure they didn't wear suspenders (braces), and owing to the shape of my middle, it's needful for the outer belt (tunic and/or balteus) to be located below the inner/upper one (braccae thin belt or drawstring). So to get the braccae loosened, it requires taking the balteus either higher up the belly, or unbuckling it altogether. Point is, I know the Romans didn't do all that, so the way back then question was, "how DID they do it?" :?:

I know it had to be a relatively easy thing that didn't take a long time, for obvious combat-inspired reasons, and if you weren't wearing braccae, it would just be a simple matter. But sometimes I do wear them, and I'm making a new pair, so, I thought I'd ask and find some kind of historical answer. I can think of some hysterical ones already... :lol:

[M. Demetrius]

...and don't say, "Just lose a few inches of middle." A waist is a terrible thing to mind.

[arklore70]

Well, I went ahead and made a fly on mine after a few close calls running to the latrine.

My tunic completely hides the fly. I might be going to Hades for perhaps taking some license with my bracae, but it beats stripping down my gear, or worse :oops:

Mike

[M. Demetrius]

Finally! Somebody who gets what I'm talking about. Hmm. Maybe it's just a Texas thing. Yeah, that's it.

Them other guys jest ain't from aroun' here, y'know, bro?

So is there any consensus? Did the Romans put a fly in their braccae?

[Wes]

I made a pair of "under breeches" for winter wear when I visit the 18th Century, The wool got a bit rough in certain spots.

The basic pattern was along the lines of knee breeches, with draw strings at each knee and at the waist. Then, I slit the front, overlapped it, and made leather buttons to close the fly. I will be using the same type thing for my bracchae......with the possible difference being in the buttons, but the thick leather button was a little flexible and did not "pinch or bind".....But I am leaning towards leather, it almost look like a field addition, done for ease and comfort by the wearer, not the tailor..

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmm, all good points I will bear in mind when I make some for my second century impression. it is complicated enough with out Braccae!

[Tarbicus]

I think we're discovering why it took the Romans over half a millenium to adopt trousers :wink:

"But wouldn't it be easier with a fly?"
"No. That's not what the Germans do."
"But it'd just make sense."
"Look, we didn't invent them."

[Crispvs]

When I need to 'relieve myself' when in kit, I simply lift up the lower edge of my tunic in (normally) three places and tuck these into my balteus militaire. As has already been pointed out, this gathers up the apron and the sword doesn't get in the way anyway (incidently I would never do anything more than a 'number 1' whilst wearing segmentata armour, so 'number 2' has to wait until I am no longer on duty and not in armour anyway).
If I wore trousers with my first century kit (which, thanks to the absence of evidence for their use, I don't) hitching up the tunic in this way would free up both hands and would largely alleviate the problems you mention.

As to the waistband of your trousers being higher than the level of your military belt, then either your waistband is unusually high or you are wearing your belt a bit low. When I am in my fourth century kit I do wear trousers and have never found any problems with accessing the drawstring whilst wearing a military belt.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

When I need to 'relieve myself' when in kit, I simply lift up the lower edge of my tunic in (normally) three places and tuck these into my balteus militaire. As has already been pointed out, this gathers up the apron and the sword doesn't get in the way anyway (incidently I would never do anything more than a 'number 1' whilst wearing segmentata armour, so 'number 2' has to wait until I am no longer on duty and not in armour anyway).

Crispvs

Actually, it isn't that much more awkward than a number 1.... :wink: