MODERN DAY ARMY AND ROMAN INFLUENCES

[Anonymous]

What modern day things can be found in the armed services that can be directly traced to the Roman Empire? I am sure that there might be many things but are there any favorites anybody would like to list? Just how many Centurion ghosts are there out there now? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Actually there really isn't much of anything that can be related to roman soldiers unless you count a dagger. Marching drill would be the only other similarity. The us army more closely resembles the german army of wwii.<br>
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Valete,<br>
<br>
Owain<br>
<br>
groups.yahoo.com/group/Segontium/ <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Not Roman, I know, but doesn't the inverted V sign painted on US & UK tanks in Iraq derive from the Spartan shield symbol? <p></p><i></i>

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!<br>
Yeah, I'd have to agree that there are very few aspects of the modern military that can be traced directly to Rome. Modern armies are the result of a lot of long and bloody evolution through the last 400 years. Nothing Roman actually survived that long. A few times there is direct copying of something Roman, like Napoleon having his battalions carry eagle standards. In the American Civil War, artillerists were issued with short swords, because the French were using them, because the Frech were on a neo-classical fad at the time and knew the Romans used them. The American artillerists wisely ditched the things at the first opportunity, because if their cannons did not destroy any advancing enemy, they'd be facing cavalry with 3-foot sabers, and infantry with over 6 feet of musket and bayonet. Their short swords were too small to be any use in that kind of fight, and too big to cut bread or skin a rabbit. Toss 'em!<br>
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There have been MANY attempts to equate modern rank systems with Roman ones, leading to a lot of contrivance and misconception. They were simply different systems. Sure, there are similar numbers of men in some units, just because units that size seem to work pretty well. Parallel development, more than anything else.<br>
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By the way, I think the chevron on modern tanks has nothing to do with the Spartan lambda. It's just an easily recognizable symbol to prevent friendly fire incidents. (I heard we copied it from the Israelis, but can't prove anything.)<br>
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That said, Caesar and Vegetius and other Roman writers are still taught in modern academies! The Romans by and large knew what they were doing, and modern soldiers can learn from them. But that's going to be mostly generalities, not specifics.<br>
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Valete,<br>
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Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I have heard that riot police when they use the clubs and shields use a lot of methods that they copied from the Romans. For instance the banging of the shield and moving forward at the same time. <p></p><i></i>

[johnlg3]

I disagree in some respects to the opinion that modern armies don't have much direct influence, not true. While you may have a hard time finding exact matches, there are numerous examples of Roman influence. For example, the head pieces for unit flags are all eagles and spear points. The fact we have unit flags at all, and all units have some kind of Latin motto. Close order drill, digging in, unit sizes are even roughly the same as in a legion! The influences may be subtle, but they ARE there! The main point is the Romans set the standards for a professional army, and all of the armies that have followed since, emulate them to some degree or other. All armies emphasis working as a team, not the individual, the NCO's while not exactly a centurion, are the direct decedents of them, the "backbone" of the army; the professional soldier who passes on his knowledge and skill to the new recruits. I'm sure I'm forgetting other easy examples but I think you all get my point.<br>
John Gross<br>
Oregon <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Dare I say, the Roman army/logisitics machine helped introduce the concept of Mass-production and Standardization of equipment. Esspecially after Marian reforms, you have specific equipment, Gladius, dagger, 2 Pila. The army is reorganized into Centuries and Cohorts Versus earlier Maniples, and the 3-rank system, each of which are armed differently...Anyways, when Rome really gets the gears grinding, and when they have nearly 25 active Legions just about everywhere, one had to keep all of this supply and equipment getting to where it needs to be - if you have production of standardized equipment, it makes all the difference.<br>
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comparing to the US armed forces - the M-16 being the standard issue rifle for all branches (or is it the M-4 Carbine nowadays?), and they are all chambered to 7.62mm, and isn't the reason behind the controversial (and cheesy IMHO) decison to switch the standard sidearm/pistol from the .45 M1914 Colt to the Barretta 9mm for keeping logistics simple between NATO and US forces' ammo supplies?<br>
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Ok, getting off track here - anyway, I see the Romans influencing directly and indirectly, modern armies with Standardization/Mass-Production and Discipline/Organization, and Training. I suppose there is an argument that Battlefield communications and signalling could have been introduced or at least utilized by the Romans - I don't know of any Greeks using standards and uniform colors - but correct me if I'm wrong - And aren't the Cornicerns in the Roman army uniquely Roman?<br>
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until we uncover more evidence...<br>
valete<br>
ANDY <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Senior NCOs in the British army carried ( and may still do ) a 3 foot staff. I dont know if this is a shortening on the Spear carried at waterloo of something harking back to Roman times.<br>
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The British beach-master on D-Day ( I forget which beach ) carried one which looked very much like a vine staff of a Centurion.<br>
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Conal <p></p><i></i>

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!<br>
A lot of these "influences" are very debatable. Flagpoles with spearheads are more likely to be datable to the middle ages, when knights carried penons with their heraldry on their lances. Eagles might just be AMERICAN eagles, not Roman ones. Unit sizes might correspond because units of those approximate sizes just work out nicely for administrative or combat purposes--but it should be noted that basic modern divisions are a lot bigger than a legion! Things like training and discipline have evolved over centuries, and in many European contexts disappeared entirely for generations, so you can't really say that they are holdovers from Roman times or directly inherited from them. Standardization and mass-production works for us because we have an industrial society, not because the Romans did it first.<br>
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What I'm saying is that there is a difference between military heritage which has been passed down from the Romans in a traceable descent, and aspects which were lost but then directly copied from Rome in later times, AND aspects which have simply re-evolved over time and are simply parallels. (Does he carry the stick simply because he found out that centurions did? Or because his predecessors did at the Somme or Waterloo? Or is there a detectable custom of carrying a vine-staff in the British army which dates back to Roman times? (Not likely since the vitis went away in the Late Roman period...))<br>
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Sure, modern armies study Rome, and see what they did and how. But too much of what the Romans did does not really apply to a modern battlefield, which has evolved in its own way. Parallels there certainly are, but we should not assume they are there BECAUSE of the Romans.<br>
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Valete,<br>
<br>
Matthew <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I think it was carried to issue corporal punishment ... and it looked good. Was it called a "swagger stick" ?<br>
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[Crispvs]

An officer carries a swagger stick, which is a decendant of the 'baton of command', and a sergeant major carries a pace stick. The pace stick is actually two pieces of wood joined with a hinge at the top, which are able to be opened to the exact measure of where a man should be standing in relation to the next man during drill. Or so I have always been led to believe.<br>
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Crispvs<br>
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[drsrob]

Correct about the pace stick, but it is purely British.<br>
the swagger stick was adopted by officers during WWI, to replace the sword, when it was no longer carried in the field.<br>
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The 'baton of command' ??? <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

"The baton of command"<br>
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Presumably the bacculus, a symbolic club carried by medieval commanders and (apparently) introduced to England by the Normans. It survives today as the Field Marshal's Baton (as allegedly found in every private's knapsack). Some hold that it is itself descended from the batons being held by some statues of Roman Generals. See the the crossed batons in the Arms of the Duke of Norfolk as hereditary Earl Marshal. <p></p><i></i>