Trajans Column and Scuta

[Doc]

I was reading through the thread on the Toledo helmet and saw some dissention with respect to Trajan's Column.

Tarbicus mentions being foolhardy copying kit or armor from TC.

I am making a scutum for my mid-first centruy AD centurio kit. I would like to use a scutum with curved sides (Augustan period Scutum) and would like to have a laurel wreath with a ribbon at its bottom and a star at the top. All these features are on TC.

Based on the skeptical nature of what was being said, would it then be "incorrect" or "inaccurate" for me to base by scutum decoration and shape on TC.

If the answer is no then it should make sense that the sculptors had seen these scuta otherwise how else were they to come up with a design?

Paolo

[Paullus Scipio]

The curved-sided scuta shown on T's column is well attested elsewhere than on the Column, and is shown authentically, bar it's dimensions, on the Column.
The wreath design, AFIK is first shown on the column and as such, is suspected of belonging to one of the Legions raised by Trajan such as LegioXXX Ulpia Victrix ( Ulpia being Trajan's family name).......so might be a bit dodgy for mid-first century.
Might be best to stick to a known mid-first century design, such as those from Mainz......

[Tarbicus]

That shape of scutum is on the Adamklissi Metopes, so it wouldn't be 'foolhardy' to use IMHO. I've got one and I'd be happy to use it for a Dacian/earlier 2nd-C legionary impression.

Bear in mind that my extreme scepticism about TC is only my opinion as well, and I'm sure plenty disagree with me. But my own opinion is only based on the extreme nature of the disagreement between the sculptors in Rome and those in Dacia, and I'll always side with eyewitnesses. Jon Coulston has a new book on TC to be released soon IIRC, and it will be interesting to see if he covers the subject.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

There is a group here which uses the 'wreath and ribbon' motif on their scuta, not to sure which period they cover tho, Jim might know?

[Tarbicus]

Is it the auxilia of the Antonine Guard (VI Victrix)?

[Peroni]

Also the Chester Guard (Legio XX) use it Jim.

[Tarbicus]

Don't tell me, tell Byron :wink:

[Doc]

Thanks all for the info. That at least is a load off my mind.

Does anyone have any pictures, photos of originals or reconstructions of the Mainz scuta desings or emblems.

I am not sure which ones the Mainz would be since I have seen many different reconstructions.


Thanks

Paolo

[Magnus]

Hey Paolo, another guy to get in touch with is Andrew Brozyna...he had a few patterns that he drew from the ones on T's C that I ended up using for my soon to be former unit, Legio XXX Ulpia Victrix. Bear in mind that aside from the 30th, and II Trajana Fortis, all other legions in the Dacian wars were pre-existing 1st century armies. So would it be wrong? Well, not really, since no-one can tell you what emblem belonged for certain to which legion.

Here's Andy's site: http://www.redrampant.com/

Worth sending him an email to see if he still has the pictures (his site has changed).

[Gaius Longius]

Hi Guys,

As Peroni said above Byron the Deva Victrix in Chester use the victory laural to symbolise the Victrix part of Leg XX Valeria Victrix. But I would have to wait for Mark's comments as to any evidence on its use other than T.C.

Regards,
Gary

[Robert]

I am presently having a handdrawn laurel wreath design turned into a digital, plotable version (though that is usually a pretty big file to mail). Raided the wufs kitchen for the proper leafsize :lol: I may also do it in 4 A3 scans, so I can mail it and you can print it and stick it together yourself. It's been drawn for an auxillia shield (helping Jasper with his Batavians, they wanted some variation in shielddesign) and I took TC and the redrampart info as a starting point. Send me a regular mailadress to r.wimmers*A*T*hotmail.com, wish I could just upload it to RAT somewhere. Perhaps I should paint it first and post a picture before distribution :?

[Doc]

Thanks all for the reply and the information.

So let me understand this. I can use the laurel wreath, star, ribbon blazon combination for a mid first century impression because it may have existed before TC?

As mentioned in the previous post, does anyone have the Mainz blazon examples

Robert PM sent, Thanks

Paolo

[Nerva]

Personally I think there's nothing wrong with copying anything from TC or TT, just don't expect it to be very authentic or representitive of anything that was actually used. A lot of artistic license was used on both.

To give you an example, look at the segmentata, no example of segmentata constructed in such a fashion has yet been found. As for shield patterns, both TC and TT clearly show the curved sided curved scuta being used (even the flat shields are Scuta). As a matter of fact I beleive TT shows legionaries using flat Scuta.

We are all familliar with the hand of Jupiter Scuta artwork, but I'm sure there were many more designs in use including the laurel leaf design. Somehow though I imagine the designs were as simple as possible as touching them up after combat is a bugger (we learned this to our cost, simple design=time saved after a scrap). If you want examples from TT check here:

http://www.romanarmy.ie/Adamklissi.htm

[Tarbicus]

Somehow though I imagine the designs were as simple as possible as touching them up after combat is a bugger (we learned this to our cost, simple design=time saved after a scrap).

A legion had a zillion specialists in all sorts of things including painters. You name it, they had men to do it, unlike a re-enactment group. :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Also the Chester Guard (Legio XX) use it Jim.

That is the Group I was thinking of!

Thanks for the clarification Gaius!