equites stablesiana

[Anonymous]

I'm looking for any information about the equites stablesiana. I'm familiair with the article by Speidel, but haven't found new information since. I'm also interested in the forts or other places where equites stablesiana were located or where tombstones of them were found.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Arpvar <p></p><i></i>

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

Arpvar,<br>
<br>
in the older thread there is info about the equites Stalesiana:<br>
<br>
[url=http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=570.topic" target="top]pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=570.topic[/url] <p>Volo anaticulam cumminosam meam!</p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Please, EQVITES STABLESIANI!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

i bow my head in shame.... <p>Volo anaticulam cumminosam meam!</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reactions.<br>
<br>
Does anybody know how one of the equites got in the Netherlands (deurne). All the forts seen to be along the Danube (or it there any info for a temporary stay in germ. secunda). I can't imagine he got lost this far.<br>
<br>
Arpvar.<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Oh no, the Deurne cavalryman attacks again!<br>
(Please, don't take this too seriously, it's been only an involuntary nervous reaction, sorry! )<br>
As part of a votive offering at a bog near Deurne (Netherlands), there is a beautiful late cavalry helmet with the inscription: STABLESIA-VI-<br>
It is unclear if the votive offering was made by a retired German officer in Roman service while returning home or if it is just war booty offered to the gods by Germans. In any case, there was no drowned horseman at all!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Well, <em>possible</em> votive offering. <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

All right, Robert,<span style="color:yellow;"> 'possible'</span> votive offering!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Uwe Bahr]

Aitor, Robert,<br>
<br>
I know You are both experts in late Roman Military and Aitor, Your reaction may be nerved ("Oh no, the Deurne cavalryman attacks again!") because the theme has been discussed in detail already; I am relative new in this forum and can't remember or find an older topic about this theme.<br>
<br>
But I know about a book with the description how the helmet and other finds (spurs, shoes, textile structures, etc.) were discovered. If I am not too wrong, did they find a mass inside the helmet and in the place where one may assume the shoulder of a head over fallen rider, which was interpreted as soaped remnants of parts of a human body.<br>
<br>
It may be that you have - due to your special interest - newer research results, but after my level of knowledge was it a completely equipped rider who fell head over in the moorland and sank, and no votive offering.<br>
<br>
Uwe <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Aaarrgghhh ! (Again, my most humble excuses, Uwe )<br>
It's been Carol van Driel who made the survey. It was intended to be published on one Bonner Jahrbuch but not yet (if I'm well informed). Therfore, to her is due the credit.<br>
She studied the spade marks on the tent leather sheets and the other items and concluded that all them were wrapped in the tent panels forming a bundle and perhaps tied with the reps woollen bands.<br>
What about the horseman? It is impossible that the Kaiser's agents or amybody else could see the finds 'in situ', because the finder (Gabriel Smolenaars) disturbed everything and carried to his house, at first, what seemed to be more interesting, i.e. metal and, of course, the helmet, which he, moreover, stripped of its leather bag and lining. What Smolenaars' nephew told Carol is that the helmet was 'full of hair' when discovered. That hair, most probably, was only the decomposed felt inner lining.<br>
Once recovered from my first instance shock, be sure that we can discuss about the whole thing from the beginning if neccessary!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Even from years back when the 'dead Dearne cavalryman' legend was prevalent, it never made sense to me, when even textiles survived yet no real traces of a body. Usually bogs preserve bodies, (or parts, at least, depending on chemical conditions), rather then dissolve every trace, yet leave leather and cloth.<br>
<br>
Somewhere though, in the Barbarian wastelands of Northern Europe, there must be preserved the bodies of Roman prisoners sacrified in the bogs and moors.<br>
<br>
Dan <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

<br>
I completly agree with Aitor. There is absolutely no evidence of any body of parts of a body, although several articles say otherwise. But as Dan says correctly, if the parts of the leather tents survived, a body would also have survived. So no drowning.<br>
But also no offering! The helmet and the so called money bag with 41 coins (not 39) were not found together, but several meters apart. If it had been an offering, the items would surely have been found together. So to my humble opinion its most possibly someone who got lost and lost his baggage from his horse during one night.<br>
<br>
The question remains: what was a member of the equitew stablesiani doing so far away from his fort. All the equites stab. forts I know of are in Bavaria.<br>
I am still very interesed as I'm preparing an article on the discovery.<br>
<br>
Arpvar<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Arpvar,<br>
Where have you heard/read that the coins and the 'purse' were found several meters apart from the helmet?<br>
That would be really puzzling, because the leather 'purse' is in reality the carrying bag for the helmet!<br>
In 1996, Carol van Driel asked me about that possibility and I had a replica cloth bag made. My replica helmet fitted neatly inside (cheeks and neckguard folded, of course!)<br>
<br>
Aitor<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Uwe Bahr]

Aitor,<br>
<br>
I hope, I haven’t pushed up Your blood pressure to much.<br>
<br>
My source is Hans Klumbach’s book ‚Spätrömische Gardehelme’ (Late Roman Guard Helmets). It contains an article of the Dutch scholar W. C. Braat and others about the fund of Deurne. I know, You can read and write a lot of languages, but German is not thereby - as I read in Your excellent homepage. Therefore here some parts of the article in translation:<br>
<br>
Braat quotes a letter of June 7th, 1924, of one Mr. Anton Kohlgruber, addressed to the director of the Provincial Museum Hanover. The latter worked at that time on a paper about moorland corpses. Kohlgruber wrote:<br>
<br>
“Together with the ‘knight’s armor’ in Peelheide, the Dutchmen call it de Peel, there was discovered a disintegrating Fat mass inside the helmet, which was addressed as brain. Nearby the helmet lay - at the normal body place - the outer part of the soaped right shoulder with a fragment of the likewise soaped right upper arm ... (following are specified the further well-known pieces of the find)â€Â

[aitor iriarte]

Uwe,<br>
As you rightly guessed, I own Klumbach's book and I've even trnaslated it to Spanish for my own personal use (yes, I can 'read' German at a snail's pace and looking constantly to the dictionary, the results are around 90% reliable )<br>
If you read between the lines in Braat's paper, you will notice that the letter most probably is a forgery. If you read carefully the find account, the helmet and other items were at Smolenaar's house before anybody else could examine them 'in situ' (furthermore, Braat acknowledges that nobody from the museum went ever to visit the fidspot!)<br>
Carol thinks and i agree with her that the mass of decomposed felt lining inside the helmet ('it was full of hair') gave birth to the story of the drowned horseman.<br>
<br>
Ah, thanks for your opinion on my artillery page!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>