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Boar tusk helmet
#16
Agreed. Its worth checking out if just for the Suppliers links. I spent a few hours making additions to my Favorites section after first checking out his bronze age site.
Derek D. Estabrook
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#17
Gosh, I'm just the belle of the ball, here! Tanx, guys! Glyn, you might want to drop by the Bronze Age Center, as well,

http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Center/index.php ?

While I do have some Trojan War era things, oddly enough it's a VERY hard era to pin down. Partly that is the mess that the chronology is in--you need to chop about 300 years off all the "orthodox" dates. This means that Geometric and early Iron Age evidence comes into play as well as late Mycenaean. But archeological remains are still very rare, so we're generally stuck with interpreting very stylized artwork.

However, there is the stuff from Thebes that turned up a few years ago, including a cuirass that apparently derives from the Dendra panoply, with smaller shoulder guards and narrower articulated bands at the bottom. Scale armor was probably still in common use, as well, and linen armor was known. Helmets are described as horned by Homer, and horned helmets are often seen in artwork from several different cultures. Shields were round, or sort of pelta-shaped as on the Warrior Vase, or the Dipylon style (derived from a Hittite form), or even square!

I should probably add a strictly Trojan War page to my site at some point. But at the moment I'm doing heavy research on Bronze Age Sardinia! Eh, I'm all over the map...

That get you started? Khairete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#18
Like the site Mat, are you going to do an Argos bell cuirass sometime?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#19
Thanks everyone for the help, especially Matt - I found the linked site very interesting and useful. I'm actually researching for a series of novels - the first is all finished and comes out in June, the second is at the editing stage and should be out in April 2009, and I've just started the third. All are set in the Bronze Age and follow the cycle of myths about the Trojan War, starting with the courtship of Helen ten years before the war. The reason I asked the question was to see if there was any particular armour the Trojans would have worn, as the third book is based on the events in and around The Iliad, so I'm trying to make the differences between Greeks and Trojans clearer. A couple of questions I have are about how common the figure-of-eight shield would have been and what was the most common sort of body armour - bronze, leather, layered cloth etc. Any help with these questions would be much appreciated.
Thanks again,
Glyn
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#20
Happy to help! Sure wish I had more answers for you, though. We really don't know much about the differences between Trojan and Mycenaean equipment, mostly because we know darn little about either! I'm sure the folks back then could tell the difference. It might help to study Hittite artwork, since Troy is on the fringes of Hittite territory and there'd probably be a lot of that influence. Some Trojan allies were from even farther east. At a wild guess, scale armor might have been more common among the Trojans than for the Achaeans.

The actual Figure-8 shield and the "tower" shield--seen on the famous Lion Hunt dagger and other Mycenaean artwork--were probably both obsolete. The Dipylon shield was round or oval with sharp semi-circular cutouts on either side, and is clearly derived from a Hittite style of about that same shape. The Figure-8 shield is a different shape, and much larger as well.

I think bronze was the most common material for armor, and it's certainly what Homer mentions most. We know that quilted linen cuirasses were also in use, and Homer also mentions leather or hide armor at least once. Mind you, he gives no details! But as a comparison (and "on the other hand"), the archive tablets from Nuzi in Mesopotamia apparently list 200 times as many suits of *rawhide* scale armor as bronze ones! Now, I don't know a lot about these lists, whether they are inventories of "govenment issue" stuff or what. But it really changed my ideas about hide armor! King Tut was buried with a shirt of rawhide scales, for instance, and we know from other sources that they liked suits with alternating rows of bronze and rawhide scales, like mine. (The later historian Strabo says that Sardinians wore cuirasses of sheep hide, and many of the little bronze figurines from that island show what look like quilted cuirasses or jerkins.)

Bear in mind that in all likelyhood, armor of any sort was uncommon, worn only by aristocrats and their immediate supporters. Common troops probably had little more than shields for protection, same as in most other ancient cultures.

Good luck with the books!

Khaire,

Matthew

PS:

Quote:are you going to do an Argos bell cuirass sometime?

Would be nice, but of course that's from the icky IRON Age, hee hee! If I manage to get more sheet bronze, I plan to do the Thebes cuirass and a Villanovan "poncho" cuirass first, plus a number of helmets, greaves, shields, and other tidbits. The Argos cuirass is pretty far down the list!
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#21
Thanks again Matt. I suppose the arms and armour are pretty much the same as most other things from the Bronze Age - fragments of information only. From a writer's perspective that's great as it gives a bit more room for the imagination.
The shield info is very useful and I can certainly use the Dipylon shield - sounds similar to the one used by Brad Pitt in Troy. Unfortunately, the cover for my first book features a round shield with a classical image on it. I pointed out the inaccuracy but was told to stop being an anorak (British term for a nerd). Luckily, I've convinced my publisher to use the Lion Hunt dagger on the second cover.
I think the most useful bit of info is your reminder that the levied soldier wouldn't have had much in the way of armour to start with. It's too easy to focus on the heroes of the Homeric poems and forget the ordinary Joes. Similar to the armies of medieval England and Europe, I imagine.
Thanks again!
Glyn
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#22
The figure-8 shield and the "tower shield" were not in use by the time of the Trojan War. Every shield described by Homer in any detail is circular. With the exception of three people (who are wearing linen armor), Homer dons all of his heroes in bronze - most likely the bell cuirass but scale would likely have been more common among the Trojans than the Achaeans.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#23
Quote:omer dons all of his heroes in bronze - most likely the bell cuirass

The first "bell cuirass" found is 8th century,right? Isn't it a bit late for the Trojan War? Even with fixed timing? Also Homer speaks MANY times,if I remember well,about bronze "belts". And it makes it sound like these belts were detachable,or able to be attached to different cuirasses,but still part of the soldier's protection. Perhaps this is why some people believe thet bronze cuirasses described by Homer are an evolution of the Dendra panoply, becasue Homer speaks of arm guards and belts, both of which apply to the dendra panoply. Even one of the Warrior Vase interpretations includes "belts" (though I find it one of the less likely interpretations)
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#24
Yes, the first datable bell cuirass is a little late, but in form it's VERY similar to the cuirass from Thebes. Just a little more decoration, and a slight flair at the waist.

Good point about the belts, though I'd have to dig through Homer again to come up with a cogent answer. As I dimly recall, some belts seem to be under the armor, some over it, so we're really not sure what the heck is going on! But in any case, the armor pieces from Thebes included a number of long strips, not as wide as those from Dendra but most likely similar in function.

There is a well-known figurine with a mongo Dipylon shield slung on his back, wearing little more than a funnel-shaped helmet, a wide belt, and a smile.

Oh, here's some information on the Thebes pieces, though I think some of the images are gone:

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... wtopic=251

Glyn, yes, for some reason the Brad Pitt shield DOES have the right outline for a Dipylon! Though the color and decoration are the usual Hollywoodisms. Bronze is supposed to SHINE!!

Khairete!

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#25
Quote:Yes, the first datable bell cuirass is a little late, but in form it's VERY similar to the cuirass from Thebes. Just a little more decoration, and a slight flair at the waist.


Oh, here's some information on the Thebes pieces, though I think some of the images are gone:

Khairete!

Matthew
All the available informations and the images of the most significative armour elements found in the Thebes' arsenal are shown in this page
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour1.htm
Recently I have also updated the pages relevant to the ships and the bow/arrows
In the body shield page there is also an interesting pottery fragment from Tiryns dated around 1300-1250 BC which attested as both the figure of eight and tower shield were still used in that period which is compatible and in any case very close to ones of the possible dates of the Trojan war.
(see also Trojan war related page)

Regards
Andrea Salimbeti
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#26
Great! Laudes!
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#27
Excellent site!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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