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Avete omnes!<br>
<br>
The draco standard head found at the Niederbieber fort (Germany) is one of those highly successful items which has been replicated many times.<br>
Notwithstanding, it is really puzzling to see that the distribution and pattern of gilt and silvered areas clearly vary from one replica to other.<br>
I'd like to know, if someone could tell me which was the original distribution on the original head and if analysis have been made to determine if the silvering is such or just tinning (it would be rather surprising, if the rest of the head is gilt!)<br>
Good pics from the original item would be highly thanked, too!<br>
<br>
Bene valete<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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Aitor, as I recall the original, the top piece was fully gilded and the bottom was tinned or silvered. I would not be surpised if parts of the top such as eyes, ears, etc may have been silvered for contrast, but in many areas only the bare bronze is left. I do not know of a formal report on this, perhaps Mike Bishop does. It definately does not have a hole in the top for a spear.<br>
<br>
I believe a Late Roman Draco carried by infantry would be considerably larger than the Niederbieber example. I carried Junkelmann's that was made by Simkins in 1:1 scale, and it is not large enough to be very impressive. Those in Roman art appear to be larger.<br>
<br>
The JRMES article that purported that "eared" dracos were always "Barbarian" is nonsense. There are many "eared" dracos in Roman art without any barbarian connection.<br>
<br>
Dan <p></p><i></i>
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Dan,<br>
Two questions:<br>
After your former commentaries, I did not expect a hole on the upper part of the draco for a spear-head, but I still think that it would be necessary to make the head turn easier around the pole. All that you need is a flat 'stopper' over the hole and the draco won't be impaled.<br>
I thought that draco standards were carried mainly by cavalry. Are there references to dracos carried by infantry?<br>
<br>
Aitor<br>
<p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
Aitor,<br>
<br>
Rob has a section on his Fectio site regarding dracos. The mentions of their use is at the bottom of the page under notes.<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
www.fectio.org.uk/groep/draco.htm<br>
<br>
I do have a question about the draco though. Is the comb a seperate piece or is it just beaten out? <p>[url=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Segontium/" target="top]groups.yahoo.com/group/Segontium/[/url]<br>
<br>
</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=davekufner>Dave Kufner</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Segontium/" BORDER=0> at: 3/6/04 11:04 pm<br></i>
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Dave,<br>
Yes, I should have said: 'pics others than those on Fectio site'!<br>
I suppose that the crest cannot have been 'rised' from the upper sheet. It has to be a separate piece but I'd like to have a confirmation!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
Aitor,<br>
<br>
I think Rob has collected most of the images that are available on the internet regarding Dracos. I did find one other reference to a draco at the following website.<br>
<br>
www.neara.org/ROS/dragon.htm<br>
<br>
From the 9th century "Codex Aureus" I wish it were a clearer picture though. I'd also like to find this codex.<br>
<br>
PS...what unit do you portray?<br>
<br>
OT.... I remember reading a theory while ago that Ogam was a derivitive of the Basque language.<br>
<br>
Dave <p>[url=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Segontium/" target="top]groups.yahoo.com/group/Segontium/[/url]<br>
<br>
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Dave,<br>
Thanks for the reference I'm looking specifically for images of the Niederbieber draco to order a replica.<br>
I've been looking for the reference of that Carolingian draco miniature. If I succeed, I'll tell you where is it.<br>
We re-enact the 'Cohors Prima Gallica' a former cohors equitata milliaria which finished its existence garrisoning the town of Veleia, now Iruña in the Basque Country. Late fourth, early fifth century AD.<br>
Ogam? I think that it is a way of writing Gaelic! Gaelic is an Indoeuropean language not related to Basque at all...<br>
<br>
Dan,<br>
I've been examining the photos of the Niederbieber head on Robert's site and there is definitely an upper hole. Therefore, the pole went through the head! Anyway, I agree with you about the (absence of) spearhead, ie, you don't need to notice that the draco is 'impaled' when seen from the outside!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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Hi again, Dave.<br>
The book is Saint-Gall's Abbey "Psalterium Aureum"<br>
<img src="http://rubens.anu.edu.au/htdocs/bytype/manuscripts/survey/0001/138.JPG" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
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Aitor,<br>
I believe the 'hole' is merely for an anchoring stud, and of less diameter than a spear haft. I once took Junkelmann's Draco (made by Simkins) off of its shaft, but it was over ten years ago and now cannot remember the details. Mainz is only an hour away, so next time I am by there I will check out the exact electrotypes at the RGZM. They have one in artifact condition, and one gilded and silvered. I'll try to take some digital photos.<br>
<br>
You will notice one of the definate 'Roman' dracos in the JRMES article with a "beard". This is probably what the slots in the Niederbieber draco are for.<br>
<br>
The green painted Carolingian draco suggests some may have had a non-metallic head, probably carved wood. I suspect many 'barbarian' dracos were made this way. <br>
<br>
As to whether only cavalry used the Draco, no, in at least one contemporary late Roman account, a Draconarius of an Infantry unit is specifically mentioned. It seems in the infantry there was only one draco in the cohort, and centuries probably still used the traditional signa so often seen on coins and monuments. In this respect, the draco is probably 'overused' because of its late Roman connotation, when in reality, traditional signa were far more common. What the hey, I'm guilty too!<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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Hi Aitor<br>
Thank you (and Dave) for that 'missing link' I needed between 6th c. Byzantine draco's and the 11th-c. Bayeux one! If you don't mind, I'll put it on the site between the others.<br>
<br>
Can you give the full reference (MS St. gallen, etc. etc.) of that work? And would you happen to know waht the caption says?<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
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Aitor, Robert and others,<br>
<br>
I can add the photo of a dragon standard head, that is exhibited in the Hermitage St. Petersburg.<br>
<br>
<img src="http://people.freenet.de/u-bahr/Draco-Hermitage.bmp" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
I found following information: "It is made of silver and comes from the Government of Perm in Russia. This Sassanian piece of the 7th century A.D. shows a dragon-like head of hybrid (dog- or wolf-shaped) character with an open mouth and chased embossé decoration. It also has a vertical perforation for a pole".<br>
<br>
You can find this information and more on the following site:<br>
<br>
[url=http://www.hungary.com/hungq/no144/p113.html" target="top]www.hungary.com/hungq/no144/p113.html[/url]<br>
<br>
With friendly regards<br>
<br>
Uwe <p></p><i></i>
Greets - Uwe
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Dan,<br>
I have no doubt that the upper hole is for an anchoring stud, but maybe one wider than the actual pole was, judging from the photos.<br>
So, the item at RGZM is not the original one? Do you now where is it kept? Thanks for the offer, I feel that I've got never enough pics of an object when I want to have a replica made!<br>
I agree totally with you about a 'beard' and I'm wondering about some kind of tongue (maybe too much... )<br>
I wouldn't give much importance to the colour on the miniature, it could wll be arbitrary to some extent. Anyway, don't you see a striking resemblance of the head with that well-known Scottish 'carnyx' head?<br>
I'd like to know which is the exact reference for that infantry draco. Notwithstanding, I feel that it was mainly a cavalry standard... BTW, have you realized the way it is carried by the Late Carolingian standard-bearer? I'd dare to say that the lower tip of the pole is caught between his calf and the saddle!<br>
<br>
Robert,<br>
<br>
Didn't you know about this miniature? It appears on Coulston's paper! The reference is Psalterium Aureum (St. Gall. Stift-Bib. 22) foll 140 ? (Coulston gives a different foll. number!) The miniature illustrates the Psalm 59. Yes, a psalterium is a codex containing the Psalms, and the text below is part of the nr 59.<br>
The estimated date is before AD 883, Charles the Bald.<br>
<br>
BTW, Have you received the handgrip pics I sent?<br>
<br>
Aitor<br>
<p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
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Folks,<br>
I've finally found a source for good photos of the Niederbieber draco, many thanks to everybody!<br>
Anyway, I've realized that there are no holes in the collar flange others that two for rivetting the two halves together.<br>
Does it mean that the windsock was just attached to the head by means of a simple drawstring? <br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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Well, that would be very easy and effective, as the fabric (silk, it is said) would not be very heavy.<br>
<br>
Could you send me some of those pics?<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
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No, I'm sorry, Robert<br>
I'm afraid that they're only allowed for my own private use...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 3/15/04 8:10 pm<br></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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