javelin ranges - with and without the thong

[sitalkes]

Hi, I have read that the thong attached to a javelin enabled it to be thrown further. How much further? A spear thrower such as a woomera allows a spear to be thrown as far as 180m on an extreme throw. The Olympic record, without the loop on his javelin, is about 105m. A normal Javelin throw is 35-60m. Am I right in thinking that since you could not get the same leverage as a spear thrower from a thong that was not mounted on the end of the spear, the total distance with a thong must be between 60m and 90m?

[Q Rutilius]

I wonder, was the purpose of the thong to get more distance or to increase accuracy? My understanding is that use of the thong imparts spin to the javelin. It seems to me that this would increase accuracy just like rifling imparts spin to a bullet. Or maybe they were going for both distance and accuracy. Perhaps there is an ancient source that descibes what the pupose of the thong was?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

It has been thought that if the string was twisted around the shaft,it would increase accuracy.As far as i know,re-enactors have found that the thong may increase the distance,but it has to be tied to the javelin. I suppose that if the thong is tied to the javelin,then it does not help in the spinning-accuracy. Reenactors who have tried different thongs could help.Wolfgang i think experimented.
Khairete
Giannis

[sitalkes]

Ok I'll answer my own question. I found some articles in JSTOR about this.

In the experiments made by General Reffye for the Emperor Napoleon it was found that a javelin which could be thrown only 20 metres by hand could be thrown 80 metres with the amentum. According to Juthner an inexperienced thrower increased his throw from 25 to 65 metres. Neither Juthner nor Gardiner appears ever to have thrown a javelin himself, with or without a thong. Experiments with a modern javelin showed a 4-6 per cent improvement on average, with the best improvement being +25% and the worst being -16%.
Source: Greek Javelin Throwing
H. A. Harris
Greece & Rome, 2nd Ser., Vol. 10, No. 1. (Mar., 1963), pp. 26-36.

[geala]

The question is difficult to answer. I tried both methods on some occasions (but only one time in Greek garment with pelte and spare javelins in the left hand) but I'm far from experienced. And I don't like arguments like this: "I cannot do it, so they couldn't do it". So beware.

For me the agkyle/amentum added nearly no more range to my throws. This is perhaps because I use wrong methods or wrong javelins or both.

The data given in the last post with 4-6% more range on average seems very apposite to me. To double the range or more with a agkyle... the men in Napoleons age must have been another breed than we nowadays. Or, better, I don't thrust this data at all.

The big advantage of the agkyle for me is (was, I switched to archery) that the throws are much smoother, less stress for the hand, and additional accuracy, the javelin hits more straightforward.

What I can say about the methods of fastening of the agkyle: in the field it seems not very practical to fasten the loop with a temporary knot. It is prone to open in the wrong time, the rate of fire is very slow and I don't see advantages compared to the permanently attached loop. The effect to give the javelin a spin is also possible with a (long enough) permanently attached loop, but I would generally not overestimate the influence of spin with such very low velocities like those achieved by javelins.

[PMBardunias]

In terms of the physics, the amentum's purpose is to lenthen the throwing arm- just like an atlatle. In short, for any velocity of arm swing, a javelin at the end of a longer arm will be going faster (since it travels a longer path in the same time).

I too am unsure of a "rifling" effect on such slow, long projectiles- fins would be a better choice is stability were a problem.

I have played around with slings and noticed that projectiles come out of a leather slig pocket with a pronounced spin- more important in short, fat projectiles- but I have never seen this confirmed by experienced slingers.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ever noticed his fingers?

And although it belongs to another thread...Why would a man who's not depiced on top of his tomb, be the central character of the scene and wearing a golden wreath?
Khairete
Giannis

[Agesilaos]

Greetings to everyone!

German reanactors made some experiments in ancient Olympia, a few months bevore the 28. Olympiad in Athens 2004. The resulst are similar to Jüthners (see below) in 2002.

As giannis said, the angyle was twisted around the bole. They found out, that the Angyle moves the spear to self-rotation. The self rotation is stabilizing the trajectory of the Akontion (Spear). Of course is the Ankyle a power booster too.

There are several studies about the effect with an Ankyle.
The most accepted results are:

Tests in Napoleopnic times: (as sitalkes found out)
Without Ankyle 20 m - with Ankyle 80 m.

Test by Jüthner 2002:
Without Ankyle 25 m - with Ankyle 65 m.

Conclusion by Jüthner:
Nobody of us, has been trained by classical Akontitai (spearthrow-teachers). This is, why all the results will differ from test to test. Its not possible to reconstruct the fully effect of an Ankyle to a Akontion, Dorion, etc. But it is imaginable, that a trained warrior could have reach over 100 meters.

The results have been published in the Nature-magazine on 14. November 2002. Nature 420, 141-142

Cheers!

-Agesilaos


PS: The Javelin-Rerord is from Uwe Hohn, 1984. Distance: 104,80 meters.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Agesilaos,I had seen those series of documentaries just before the Olympics. They were great. I search for them for a long time but couldn't find them. Do you have them on DVD or have seen theme posted anywhere on the net?
Khaire
Giannis

[Sean Manning]

Ave Agesilaos,

The article you cite in Nature 2002 is something about hand-weights in the long jump. Did you mean the study by Juthner cited in Harris 1963?

I'm interested because I may need to model thonged javelins in RPGs.

[Agesilaos]

Ave Agesilaos,

The article you cite in Nature 2002 is something about hand-weights in the long jump. Did you mean the study by Juthner cited in Harris 1963?

I'm interested because I may need to model thonged javelins in RPGs.

Greetings Sean!

Youre right of course. I made a mistake. Of course Jüther/63 !

Thanks for correcting me!

Cheers!

-Agesilaos

[Agesilaos]

Agesilaos,I had seen those series of documentaries just before the Olympics. They were great. I search for them for a long time but couldn't find them. Do you have them on DVD or have seen theme posted anywhere on the net?
Khaire
Giannis

Greetings Giannis!

I´m pretty sure, we´re talking about the same docs. Sadly i dont have them. Im looking for them too.

I saw them accidentaly and i didnt had the possibility to record. GMT*

Cherers,

-Agesilaos

*shortform of neogreek damn