Tribulus

[Robert]

I would think the giveaway would be the way your piece angles out. As it is split, the bent parts would be at a different angle to one another then if a forgeweld was made. We would have to make both and compare them, but I believe the difference would not be in spotting the seam, but in the way the metal is aligned/bent. Just a thought.

[Matt Lukes]

That's a reasonable idea, but the truth is that one can make a cut one nice and straight with just a little care in the forging- I made a second one yesterday that's quite straight and is precisely why I was surprised to see my weld-attempt looking just the same. So far as I can see, it's only the lack of a small seam that I'd have thought would be only visible relatively close-up.

[M. Demetrius]

Well, Matt, if it's done correctly, I think you're right (though I haven't actually heated the metal yet) that the look would be more or less the same, or could be made to look the same, by re-angling the center however you want. Hot iron is great! You can do lots of things with it when it starts to glow.

So probably, as long as the weld is good, it doesn't matter that much, right? I think it might be easier to cut a flat bar, though, and upset the edges a little as the tip gets sharp.

I plan to test it by bashing it hard with the flat of a 1 x 4 pine board, arbitrarily supposing that if it will stick in that without deforming much, it would clearly stick in a shoe or horse hoof. We'll see how that turns out, unless somebody else beats me to the punch.

[Matt Lukes]

True enough- I can't see any reason if done well, either one wouldn't work as well as the other. But not to be argumentative myself Dave, whether or not they'd bend before piercing under certain forces isn't in question- if that were case, they wouldn't have been made and used for on the order of 2300 years now. Even if it were, a 1x4 pine plank isn't really analgous to a foot or a hoof, so the only thing it might demonstrate is if no bending occurs, it definitely wouldn't bend under a foot or hoof (coming down at the same angle). But if it does bend, the test doesn't really tell anything. Besides, it's largely about the dimensions of the tribulus and clearly they were made in all kinds of sizes- some that migh bend under a whack with a plank, others that might not. The former will still hobble men and horses...

I'd say it's far more useful to tets whether or not welded ones are as solid or easily-made as the cut form- if you can forge-weld, you're the man for that test! :wink:

[M. Demetrius]

Ok, I'll give it a go. This weekend, I'm booked, and Monday, too. If I can get everything set up, I should be able to do it this week one day. I have a couple of other projects I've been putting off, so maybe I can get me into the shop to do them all at once. :wink:

I'll test the tribuli both ways, made from as close to the same kind of metal as I can, same size, etc. I'll photo what comes out, and we'll see how it goes. On a good day, I can forge weld. Other days, I just make metal hot, and risk finger burns. 8)

I like whacking things with pine boards. Gets my grrrr factor back in check. Like chopping brush and briar vines. :?

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Well as I believe I wrote, they were certainly made the way I did- and apparently by welding as well, so the answer is both. I'm not sure I see either method necessarily being that much easier though if starting from the same point- a little billet of iron. All the shaping is the same, just in one case you split the arms and bend them into an X- not a long process- in the other you have to wait for the metal to reach welding temperature

Matt I am just speaking from experience in making them, not arguing, or debating with you. For me it seems much easier to use the method I explained. I know this does not even being to suggest the method the Romans would have use since they put hinges on a belt buckle. However I have made several and they have always come out well.

As for having to wait until the metal reached welding temp, thats not that much longer than the wait until its hot ehough to make a smooth cut.

[Matt Lukes]

Argue all you want Paul :wink: - but please do explain. Starting with the same size little billet of metal, you found cutting and forming rods then welding them together was better than cutting arms and bending them? Again I'm not talking about starting with rods vs. a billet but the exact same starting point.

When I tried welding, I cleaned the joint faces, put some anhydrous borax on one, laid the other over top and heated- when it looked nice and bright yellow, I struck it solidly but that didn't do it. As I mentioned the metal really moved, so hitting it more or harder wouldn't have done anything but spread the middle out a whole lot, so I'm not sure what else I could've done- what do you do exactly?

[M. Demetrius]

This is one of those things that really can't be explained in words only, but when the metal just begins to sparkle on its own, it's about right for welding. If you go much further, it will "burn" and the carbon will be gone, but it would still make a tribulus or other non structure object.

Do wear dark eye shades when welding, because at that temp, you can get eye damage. I can't remember the lens number, but I think it's 10 or 11. I have one of those self-darkening welding hoods for that kind of thing. I suspect the Ancient smiths eventually just went blind.

For other hot metal work, I wear a full face #4 shield, and it works fine, and keeps the sparks off my moustache at the same time. (when I'm doing grinding and stuff like that, I switch it to a clear, albeit somewhat dinged up and scratched, polycarbonate full face mask). If I weren't such a tightwad, I'd just buy a second head piece, and not have to switch the lenses. But things being like they are, that won't happen.

I see what you're saying about the billet. If you start with a flat bar, then it's certainly faster to split and bend than splitting and then welding and then bending. Also, if it starts out in one piece, it will still be in one piece when you're done. No chance of the weld failing, because there's not a weld to fail.

On average, then, and thinking more anciently (getting easier every day) I'd think they were probably more often split than welded. I was just thinking 21st Cent about the rods lying on the work table out there, not thinking of billets. Do you think they made up things like those out of scraps of whatever from other projects? I sorta lean that direction.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Sory Matt missed your :?: I did not use a flux to do it as I also did spear buts with a burning torch from pipe and forged the ends to points. As to the mail there is a excellent piece in the Coppergate Helmet book on the mail section. Which they did both rivet & welded rings the rings are of 8mm it is a good piece of reconstruction work if you need any of the info I can send it to you
Regards Brennivs

[Robert]

I feel David did smack the billet on the head with his remark. As we "know" (Iron for the Eagles) the Romans made a lot of stuff en route from billets, this was also my line of though. Why weld when from a billet it would be far simpler to forge it into a strip (which is apprentice smithing) and then hot cutting the strip, reheat it just a bit back to orange and tip the projecting prongs. No loss of any material in the process. If you want the build an empire, start by being thrifty :lol:

[M. Demetrius]

And the smacked billet says, "Owww! Take it easy with that hammer! Wish I had hands to hold the place where it hurts."

:lol:

[Primvs Pavlvs]

When I tried welding, I cleaned the joint faces, put some anhydrous borax on one, laid the other over top and heated- when it looked nice and bright yellow, I struck it solidly but that didn't do it. As I mentioned the metal really moved, so hitting it more or harder wouldn't have done anything but spread the middle out a whole lot, so I'm not sure what else I could've done- what do you do exactly?

Well it seems like I am too much of a dunce to explain it into words.

So, I drew you a picture with my childlike abilities in Paint.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309 ... altrop.jpg

Also it seems that you are not letting your metal get hot enough. It should be darn near white, its just a feeling when you know its the right temp. :wink:

Another thing I failed to point out that the ones I have made were made from wrought iron. Wrought iron welds very easily, and will usually provide a very secure weld. I will usually hit it twice when welding it. Re-heat if needed, but not usually needed. Near white hot, hit one side, and then the other.

Its been about 3 or 4 years since I made these, so I am out of practise. I am sure I would make a total fool out of myself if I were tyring to demonstrate it to anyone. No one around I would make 3 dozen without a hitch. Person walks up and I would screw up 3 dozen!

I would like to add, I personally do not believe that these would have been made on the spot ie on campaign. They were probably production items produced in workshops for this type of materials. Of course they could have been made as needed, but as a rule I think they would have been left to factory type settings.

[Franklin]

This thread should have been named "The Trouble with Tribuli"

[Robert]

Yep, it's all in the carbon. It seems that very low carbon welds very well, and high carbon is a bit more tricky but also a go. The intermediates, such as mil steel, are reputed to be a true B..ard to get right. I'll try turning some old fashioned horse shoes into caltrops one day using the rod and fold way depicted (nice drawing!), as for now, it's the hot chisel for me

[Matt Lukes]

Well it seems like I am too much of a dunce to explain it into words.

So, I drew you a picture with my childlike abilities in Paint.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309 ... altrop.jpg

Ahhhh- okay now I understand. I was wondering what was meant by the loop- I was picturing something like barbed wire barbs wrapped around one another in the middle, etc.

And alright- I've heard that wrought iron is much easier to weld than mild steel- that might have something to do with the discrepancy I seem to see in ease of production between the two methods. But thanks for the pointers on heat- I kind of figured it'd be hard to really tell someone how to do it, so I guess I'll just have to keep trying until it works and hope that I remember well what it looked like.

As for making tribuli on campaign, I'd think it would be important to know just how regularly these were used- were they a normal part of a field encampment or only an as-needed type of thing. If the former, then sure I can see them being carried as normal equipment, but if they weren't regularly used, then it makes more sense that they'd be made on the spot. Alesia is a good example- given that Caesar's forces built 25 miles of walls on the spot it seems hard to think that their lillies and tribuli also travelled with them since surely the number used wouldn't have been the least bit normal.