Looking for help building up a new kit

[Fhyn]

Hi folks, have a new helm for sca fighting, what we normally call a corinthian in SCA circles, but exact time period not sure. I am guessing it is roughly designed off of between 600 and 700 BC, but am just now doing my research to match time period for this helm.

Take in account, this is for SCA fighting, so some adaptations have been made for our fighting style.

But looking to do as close as I can, with taking into account SCA armor requirements, to what I would of worn, with this helmet.

Here is a couple of pics of the helm.

What I am curious on, is how right I am on the rest of the armor, and if I am way off, please let meknow and any advise you can give.

Body - I am guessing linothorax, but also not sure if a muscled cuiress would be good also.

Lower legs - Would greaves of been worn. I could of sworn that I had seen vases with this type of helm and greaves also, just wanting to make sure.

Shield - What style shield shape would of been common. I am assuming the large round, but was curious what other styles. One thing I enjoy doing, when I am putting together different kits, is to go a little different from the norm.

Thanks for any help.

John

[hoplite14gr]

Check the Thread "Beotian shield" and do a search in the Greek section for "Archaic hoplite"

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hi John.The helmet is not earlier than middle 6th century. The linothorax was in its first steps at that time,but it seems rare,according to artistic evidence. The muscle cuirass was not in use,you need a bell cuirass,which apparently is far easier to make.
Greaves sure you need.As Stefanos said,Round shield is fine,but since you's SCA, do a search of a boeotian shield.It applies better to that way of fighting,and it also is unusual while accurate.
khaire
Giannis

[Fhyn]

Thanks guys, and will be honest, happy about that shield type, cause honestly, thats the type I was wanting to use, but wasnt sure it was appropriate. Now very happy.

Will look up the bell cuirress also.

Thanks for all the help.

Couldnt even get to sleep last night till after midnight, cause my brain was working overtime.

[Fhyn]

Ok, been reading a whole lot the last two days, and well like normal, I have more questions than what I got answers from.

The helm shown, I found a site, and granted, take it for what its worth, but it could be between 500 to 550 BC. Or are you saying it would fit better from 599 to 550 BC. Or am I totally wrong and its earlier.

Kind of confused, cause I was told to look up Archaic Hoplite by Stephanos, but from what I have read, and granted has been a little bit of contradiction on this, but I am gathering, Archaic period is from 750BC to 480BC. So if what I have read was right, then cool, I am gathering the helm fits in there, as does the boetian shield.

I really, really like the style of the Boetian shield, and to be honest, was the shield style I was wanting to use, when I first started thinking about putting this kit, or is the proper term panopoly, together.

Trying to learn all the proper terminology, will take me awhile.

Was the Boetian league the only ones that used this style, or could it of been used by other areas. trying trying to pinpoint exactly where my presentation is coming from.

It also seems, that with this helm, and if I go with a boetian style shield, which I am leaning towards, i should be looking to get into a bell cuirass, is that correct?

Also for shield design, I know this might be falling in between where individaul designs and city state designs start averlapping. But read in the Sheild design post, that if I was looking for a Boetian Aristocrat persona, I would be looking to put a snake design on the shield?

Thanks everyone on all the advise so far. Back to reading more on this site and what nuggets I can delve from the internet.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The helmet,as it's not an exact reproduction or very close to an original cannot be placed to an exact date.I'd say around 560-540,but as you understand it could be even later and less likely earlier. This is Archaic age. As I said,linothorax is a bit unlikely for that early.The "panoplia" could even have arm and thigh guards.You'll find some of those in RAT I'm sure. After all,as far as I know,they're essential in SCA. The boeotian shield appears in vases of all cities. It is thougt that it might had gone out of use at that age,but the so frequent representations may suggest otherwise.Some believe it survived particularly in Boeotia,thus the Boeotian name. It was direct descendant of the fig 8 minoan and mycenean shield and was in use in the early seventh century bc,when the phalanx was born. It is thought that in vases it only used for mythological and heroic scenes. Do a search,you'll find reproductions of boeotian shields here.I don't know if they would be apropriate for SCA though.You'll need to ask the owners about their strength.
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Dear John,

The Beotian shield was named as such because it appeared mainly on the Beotian coins. It was not limited to Beotia. It was just an evolutionof the 8-shape shiled of the Bronze age. It appears in pottery from 800 B.C. to 470 B.C. and probably Central Greeks were the last o abandon it completely.

The warrior from 800 B.C to 500 B.C was wearing cuirass grieves thigh guards rmguards and vambraces. I trust you saw the posted images.

He advanced, cast javelins, heavy javelins some times if we trust Homer and closed with the sword. He was followed by lesser armored retainers.
The evolution of the phalanx stopped this type of fighting.

The Beotian "Spartoi " (NOT Spartans!) sported a snake. The Corinthian Bachiadae sported the Chimera, the Athenian Eteovoutadae sported a Gorgoneion and Melanthedae the "Vergina Star"
The Spartan Mora of Skiritis that apear in pottery of the time sported 2 hawks and the hoplite's personal emblem in the center.
The Spartan Mora of Pyloss that apear in pottery of the time sported 2 leopards and the hoplite's personal emblem in the center.

Hope this answers your questions

Kind regards

[Chris B]

I will offer this advice. I reconstructed a Boeotian about a year and a half ago, and I would NOT recommend it for SCA. The shield is absolutely beautiful and the favorite I have made, BUT the integrity of the shield is greatly weakened by cutting the holes out of the side. You might make the holes smaller, but I think the real damage to strength is done as soon as the rim is broken into two distinct pieces. I liked this look because it seems to resemble the vases more closely than smaller holes.



The rim of the aspis is what gives it structural integrity. When you cut the holes out of the sides, you break the rim in two places. The rim is the thickest part of the shield. This only leaves the thinner central section of the shield to support all the weight. It has a more "springy" feel to it. I also have an aspis and it feels much stronger and is very rigid. I would be much more comforable using it in lieu of the boeotian. I think the boeotian would work, but it would probably break after repeated use.



I think the shield would have been stronger if it had a solid bronze facing, but unless you know how to work metal over the wooden core, that is a non-issue. You could also make it thicker, but it is already heavy as it is. Adding a thicker center section might make it too heavy for use. I covered mine with linen.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Chris,your reconstructions are both great. I would love to hande(well,both of them) the boeotian,but your saying put me in thinking...is it more probable that the actual beotian was made like the figure 8 shield or the peltes? It would have been much lighter.Then it would gain strenth with a more rigid wood or bronze rim and as importantly,by two crossed wooden parts in the interior. This is shown in a clay shiled from the 8th century.Somehow the interior would be covered by leather-fabric etc and the porpax would be placed instead of the central handle. However many think this was artistic lisense and that real boeotian shields had never had porpakes. No one knows. But this construction would be stronger actually than a wooden one,wouldn't it?
Khairete
Giannis

[Chris B]

I would think that type of construction would be more stable, but I think simply adding a bronze facing (or brass for a modern reconstruction) would add more support. Metal retains more resilience at thinner thicknesses than wood. I would think facing the entire shield in bronze with the bronze sheet bending slightly around to the back side in the holes would give ample strength. Of course, I do not think I have the skills necessary to shape the metal.

On a side note, I wonder if the aspis was an advancement from the Boeotian anyways. Simply lose the holes, bring the two rim halves together, and you get a more stable shield.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yes but a major point here is, do we believe that they were indeed faced with bronze? most examples in vases come from Archaic period,a time that is believed that even hoplite shields had a lower proportion of bronze facings.
Also,your Boeotian shield,is it heavier than your hoplite shield? And did you figure out what was the real purpose of the holes? Do you believe it was just due to evolution from the fig 8 shield,that was considerably bigger and the thin part was nesessary?
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

I have seen a lot of conjecture on the use of the holes, but I haven't really formed a solid opinion myself from handling the shield. I seem to lean towards the group arguing that it somehow helped in sighting for throwing a javelin while still offering cover or to give a better view of threats while behind the shield.

I do not know how effective they would have been for supporting a spear or allowing one to thrust through because it limits your angle of attack. You would still have to use an overhand grip on the spear to thrust over another shield which negates its use for that. Also, I would think the man to your immediate front left or right could thrust a spear at an angle to stab you in your torso. I just can't see them being great for formation use.

The shield isn't a lot heavier than the aspis and is still quite comfortable to hold. It is a little more cumbersome, but not much. The real difference is the springy feel of it. I love the shield, but lets say it probably wouldn't make it in my top 5 out of my 30 shields if I had to trust my life to it.

[hoplite14gr]

As I posted earlier and in this thread this shield was developed for a non phallanx style of fighting. Yet by Homer's time it started loose effectiveness when facing massed spearmen who held their ground.
The Lelantine war and Hyssiai (669 B.C) proved that this style of fighting was outdated.

Chris's round shield is a good example for the Hylleis wave pattern and his Beotian a good example of an Archaic hoplite of the Geronthrae mora with the solar personal emblem.

Kinds regards