Waffen SS Battle of Berlin

[Robert Vermaat]

I agree, Robert. However, were the 'elite' waffen SS expected to remain as smart and well presented as possible as an example of their discipline and superiority

I'm not so sure about their 'discipline and superiority' at this stage in the war. The 'elite' status of these forces (save of course the guard regiments that had guarded the government and only now were caught up in actual fighting) was mainly due to the resources of manpower and material of which they had first choice. But I don't believe one bit that they were still punished for a dirty uniform when having to fight the Red Army street for street, house for house, day after day!
Would they really have lined up every morning for inspection?

[Memmia]

I agree, Robert. However, were the 'elite' waffen SS expected to remain as smart and well presented as possible as an example of their discipline and superiority

I'm not so sure about their 'discipline and superiority' at this stage in the war. The 'elite' status of these forces (save of course the guard regiments that had guarded the government and only now were caught up in actual fighting) was mainly due to the resources of manpower and material of which they had first choice. But I don't believe one bit that they were still punished for a dirty uniform when having to fight the Red Army street for street, house for house, day after day!
Would they really have lined up every morning for inspection?

There apparently used to be random inspections, seriously, not every morning though, although, how much of this was Goebbels- inspired propaganda or real truth... :roll: However, routine, repetative, extremely anally retentive behaviour was observed in many ex SS men who were under surveillance after the war, -even 'lowly' ex camp guards, not just officers which suggests that they may well have enforced these disciplines with their troops right up to the end.Even though most units were usually reduced to a handful by this time. I think I would have shoved my rifle where the sun doesn't shine if my commanding officer pulled me up over tatty insignia at that stage of the fighting.

Anyhow, this is going off topic- Sorry Johnny :oops:


edited for grammar

[Robert Vermaat]

Ah, but even the SS had been receiving conscripts from all parts of society just to keep their numbers up. Many SS units were in far worse shape than some elite Wehrmacht units (Airborne regiments, Panzer Lehr armoured div., Grossdeutschland infantry, to name a few). I have no doubt some of these men did exactly as you just told us. But I doubt it was normal practise, especially in heavy battle circumstances.

To illustrate 'my' image of the 'late German soldier', here are two images of a series I just mailed to Johnny:


These are to me the real soldiers, fighting battle after battle and looking the part. The guy on the left is from the Grossdeutschland division, retreating from the lost battle of Königsberg towards the coast.

Anyhow, this is going off topic- Sorry Johnny :oops:

Hardly! It's all to do with his subject - besides, how can we go OT when we're already in OT? :lol:

[Memmia]

Great pics.

How can you tell that soldier is from the Grossdeutschland division ?
I can't see the cuff etc on that pic.

P.S. One of my great-great grandmothers was from Konigsberg
It's Kaliningrad now, and rebuilt about 18 miles away from the original completely flattened city

[Narukami]

In terms of the Waffen-SS "looking smart" at this point in the war I would direct you to the film "Downfall" which stays pretty close to the reality of the time (at least in terms of costumes and general look, they did play a little fast & lose with certain characters and incidents).

Additionally, with regard to manpower and having first call on replacements, General Michael Reynolds points out in his book "Steel Inferno: 1st SS Panzer Corps at Normandy" that as early as 1942-43 wholesale transfers of Luftwaffe ground crews into the Waffen-SS were taking place to make good losses on the Eastern Front. This included transfers into the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte. These ground crews had no say in the matter. (pp 18-19)

It is also interesting to note that some of the last Waffen-SS units to surrender in Berlin were those consisting of French volunteers.

And now I am drifting further off topic -- so let me say that none of this detracts from the quality of the art work in question. It is still first rate.

:wink:

Narukami

[Memmia]

Additionally, with regard to manpower and having first call on replacements, General Michael Reynolds points out in his book "Steel Inferno: 1st SS Panzer Corps at Normandy" that as early as 1942-43 wholesale transfers of Luftwaffe ground crews into the Waffen-SS were taking place to make good losses on the Eastern Front. This included transfers into the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte. These ground crews had no say in the matter. (pp 18-19)

Due to mass transfers did the waffen-SS adopt the use of 'slip on' shoulder strap titles ? These were used by the wehrmacht as the war progressed due to costs and impracticality from moving soldiers from one division to another and having to change their insignia.

[Narukami]

Interesting question -- I am not aware of the Waffen-SS adopting such a uniform device though clearly their uniforms, like those of the other services, did go through a "simplification" as the war progressed.

RJ Bender published, some years ago, an excellent series of books on Waffen-SS uniforms, and others have followed more recently.

Perhaps another well informed member of our forum can answer your question and I will see if I can find it in one of my reference works.

Narukami

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Due to mass transfers did the waffen-SS adopt the use of 'slip on' shoulder strap titles ? These were used by the wehrmacht as the war progressed due to costs and impracticality from moving soldiers from one division to another and having to change their insignia.

Slip on shoulder boards were standard for enlisted personel from 1936 to 1945. Even the WW1 uniforms utilized slip on shoulderboards, but in WW1 they were regimentally marked. WW2 boards were largely left blank.

SS divisions were conscripting, and transfering members into the SS as early as 1941.

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

For what this is worth.

In 1972 I was given a 1944 pattern camoflage uniform from its original owner, my girlfriends’ father, who had been a 1st lieutenant originally in an Engineer battalion of the 2nd SS Division. It was a four pocket tunic and matching pants in fairly good condition. The sleeve eagle had been removed, post war I think, the area where it had been was not faded and the outline visable. There never were any collar flashes. There was no cuff tile. The shoulder boards seemed to be earlier and non regulation for this uniform type. The backing was black, and in the case of officer sholder boards, the ends were sewn on and doubled over the sewn part and the other end held by a button. I also got a map case with it that had two notches cut in cover flap for carrying extra “Schmeisser“ magazines. There was a hand drawn map on the inside of the flap for some operation that was still visible.

I was stationed in Germany at the time, and he and I used to swap stories about Vietnam and WW II. In summary, this is what I put together from what he said, what he did not say, and what his daughter told me on separate occasions. He did not speak English and my German is not fluent so his daughter had to translate.

In the fall of 1944 he (I forgot his first name), was shot in the throat, by whom or where was not made clear. He was on convalescent leave in Bavaria and left the uniform at home in early 1945 when reporting for reassignment. The uniform was left behind because it was too light for winter wear. The way it was told to me was that doing so was of no concern to him. He was unclear as to what this new unit was, but I am under impression it was some “Kampfgruppeâ€

[aitor iriarte]

Ralph,
I love that: 'I still have the map case. It is not for sale.' :lol:

Robert,
Is your right pic dated? The guy seems to be carrying a 30 Gross. In any case, the sight is unfolded, so the Faust was probably ready to be shot hock:

Johnny,
Apologies for hi-jacking the thread. I'll try to e-mail you a few pics showing late Panzerfaust crates this evening. (Hey, I'm a totally 'late' guy: late Roman, late mediaeval, late WWII German. I rejoice in decadence... )

Aitor

[Robert Vermaat]

How can you tell that soldier is from the Grossdeutschland division ?
I can't see the cuff etc on that pic.

Ah, for that I have to rely on the author of the book, which is always the case with such images. Some are clearly stills from newsreels, some can be identified and some are clearly wrong. In another book about mountain units there’s an image of the 6th SS mountain division ‘Nord’(although some say it never really existed as a division) being sold off as the 7th gebirgsjägerdivision, despite the camouflage uniforms. But for most images one has to rely on the author for place and time identification.

Additionally, with regard to manpower and having first call on replacements, General Michael Reynolds points out in his book "Steel Inferno: 1st SS Panzer Corps at Normandy" that as early as 1942-43 wholesale transfers of Luftwaffe ground crews into the Waffen-SS were taking place to make good losses on the Eastern Front. This included transfers into the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte. These ground crews had no say in the matter. (pp 18-19)

That sounds very much like the 4th and 5th centuries, when Limitanei troops were ‘upgraded’ into the Comitatenses!

Gaius Decius Aquilius\\n[quote] He was unclear as to what this new unit was, but I am under impression it was some “Kampfgruppeâ€

[Primvs Pavlvs]

(Hey, I'm a totally 'late' guy: late Roman, late mediaeval, late WWII German. I rejoice in decadence... )

Aitor

Aitor,


From a photo shoot a couple weeks back!

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309 ... /FIG1a.jpg

[hoplite14gr]

1st (and most important) :!: :!: :!: :!:
Nice to see you back Ralf.

In 1944-45 most of the "officialy formed" SS units had lots of "wierd" Kampfgruppe in their composition.
The book of "alibi of a nation" had photos of "unidentified units" collar patches.
The "unidentified units" and "never reached regimental strength" have become history book mantras and to make it worse in many European states lots of photo docs are still "top secret". (I served in the Army History Directorate and I know first hand)
Drunken old mens tales cannot be relied or classed history but I have a feeling that some people are happy that this is the case.
Perhaps because the spoil the "universal resistance fairy tale".

@ Johhny
The U.S Army Museum in Washington has the only pattern of a cammo type that could absorb infrared light (!) - Herringer report.
I think the Swiss have managed to redevelop something similar.

Kind regards

[Praefectusclassis]

cammo type that could absorb infrared light

The Wehrtechnische Sammlung in Koblenz has the stuff as well.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

The U.S Army Museum in Washington has the only pattern of a cammo type that could absorb infrared light (!) - Herringer report.
I think the Swiss have managed to redevelop something similar.

Kind regards

Leibermuster was actually fielded in very small amounts in 1945. This was supposed to be a universal camo for Heer, SS, and Luftwaffe troops. Fortunately the war ended before production could be distributed fully.

Here is a photo of the camo in color

http://members.aol.com/spinnerplt/leib/ger_leib.jpg

One of the few known photos of troops wearing Leibermuster.

http://powstanie-warszawskie-1944.ac.pl/aa4/lieb.jpg

The Swiss version was used from the late 1950s through the early 1980s.