Need advice about overnight camp, please...

[finkdame]

Hey folks,

New to the RAT here, and I'm a teacher who needs some advice. I teach 5th grade gifted and talented kids, and I made a groma for them so that they could have a fun learning experience.

I want them to lay out an overnight marching camp, using the groma. There's only about 40 kids (half a century). So, I figured I'd cheat by having them act as if they were broken up into 5 maniples.

We don't have nearly the kind of space one would need to camp an entire legion, and we don't have more than a couple hours, so I know we have to just get the gist. However, I do want them to lay out the two main streets and figure out where the ditch and tents (including command tents) should go.

So, does anyone out there have a reasonable guess for what dimensions I should throw at these kids for their version of a camp? We have roughly 900 sq. yards to play with.

The kids would really appreciate any help we could get.

Sincerely,

Mac

[Salvianus]

Good on you for teaching hands-on history. I've never used a groma, but I teach, so I imagine I can help. A couple of q's:

Am I right that 5th graders are 10-11 years old?
When you say 'lay out' are you after chalk lines, pegs & rope, or something more ambitious?
Is it just you supervising?

Some options include imagining your 40 are indeed just a century detachment and are working while the rest of the unit are standing guard. They could model it on a 'practise camp' where they actually just built the tricky corner section, but I think it would be more satisfying to build a full circuit scaled down, (or by making each of them represent a whole century?).

I'll look up some dimensions..

[M. Demetrius]

There is a pretty good description in Polybius' The Rise of the Roman Empire VI.19-42 on how a (much larger) camp was laid out, in what order, and who did what. Just scale down the dimensions to a believeable size, and you're set. Take the number of men in the camp he's describing and reduce it straight down by the factor of how many you're representing. That should work.

Be sure to tell them how large a legion size camp was, and how many linear feet of ditch and berm were needed for that. It's totally astonishing how much earth they moved in such a short period of time.

Keep us posted on how things worked out, and do send some pictures of the layout of the camp. Keep a sharp eye open; Hannibal is at the gate....

[Tarbicus]

There is a pretty good description in Polybius' The Rise of the Roman Empire VI.19-42 on how a (much larger) camp was laid out, in what order, and who did what.

Online:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... d%3D%23500

Be sure to click the right arrow for more.

[M. Demetrius]

Good job, Jim! Thank you for that easier-than-the-library link! Here's my laus drop in your situla laudorum.

[jvrjenivs]

Hi Mac,

Good work! Please let us know the results, too? Pics?

Otherwise, did you do a 'modern' reconstruction of the Groma, or an historical more accurate one? If the last, I would like to see some pics of it anyway. Also, a second one would be good to have, if you plan to do something like this.

I also would advise to use tentstakes (???) and rope to 'lay out' the design of your camp.

For the design, a camp for 40 miles, I would suggest this nice modell made by theo Andela (germany), as it has 6 tents (4 for your miles, one for the officer/teacher). The group is to small to do a camp with main roads, etc.

[Magnus]

What is that Jurjen, some kind of century or smaller mini-camp? Is there a historical account or evidence of something that small?

[jvrjenivs]

I don't know of any evidence for this one, but as far as I know it was made for a german museum to show a smal camp of a Vexillatio. I know of small campements around watch tower, as Nijmegen has one of about the size. I also would think it is a perfect fit for a marching camp of a Vexillatio on special duty.

[Mithras]

The mile castles on Hadrian's wall are about that size, but the garrisons there are more like one or two conterburnia.

In the early empire, I think if you are putting tents up - you are digging ditches and making earthern embankments as well.

But that's what I think ...

[Salvianus]

Whilst being famous for rigidly following the established pattern, the Romans were actually very flexible. There are less typical, small forts and camps, of 30 acres, 20, 13 or even:

"Cappuck is a little fort barely an acre in extent (about 200 by 240 feet internally) with a clay rampart on a cobble foundation 24 feet wide on the east, ... and 8 feet elsewhere... on the south a single 18-foot ditch with a 9-foot berm... The rampart, and the stone inner buildings, date from the second century, but there was a Flavian fort here...¹
"¹ P.S.A. Scot., xlvi. In so small a fort, the ratio 200 to 250 men per acre no longer holds, for obvious reasons." (Collingwood, pp.32-4)

details:
http://www.roman-britain.org/places/cappuck.htm

Digging ramparts of this scale by hand is still a major undertaking today.

And there are several tiny temporary 'marching' camps e.g.

Nowtler Hill 2, Grinsdale, Cumbria
NY360567 128 x 187 ft
(39 x 57 m) ½ acre
(0.2 ha) This small rectangular camp occupies the SW slopes of Nowtler Hill ... There are four gates, those in the E & W sides places centrally and those in the N & S displaced towards the E, the camp therfore faced ESE. The gates are known to have been protected by external tituli on all sides...

details:
http://www.roman-britain.org/places/grinsdale.htm

My guess is that the last one could be built by a single century, depending on the scale of the rampart. Obviously, these didn't have the specialised buildings of a permanent fort or fortress, but I do expect they were laid out in a simplified version of the same basic arrangement on the four main 'roads', with the commander's tent placed in the centre e.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Castra1.png

Need any more? Happy to help further, but not wanting to deluge you in pointless detail.

[Magnus]

No, that's great...I happen to know of a Roman Fort being built near me, but it's on a smaller scale, like the ones you mention Salvianus. Just wondering what size of ditch and rampart a semi-permanent, century minus sized vexilation would have built, and what types of defences and gates it may have had.

And what are Tituli?

[finkdame]

Thanks for the compliments, guys (I was a little worried that I'd get hammered for asking stupid questions).

I feel like I've just had a fire hose opened up on me, but in a good way. It's going to take me a bit to filter all of the great info you've all sent my way. I have to say, it's awfully cool getting contributions from folks all around the world! The kids will be gassed!

The groma I built...well, because of cost (I am a teacher, after all) I had to cheat a little. I wanted to stabilize the horizontal bar at the top (because I used cheaper, less stable wood), so I added side supports that were cut out of modern plywood. Sorry. I think I got the dimensions of the groma right, but I did have to send away for some inexpensive but well-made plumb bobs (more modern crap). I'll get pictures posted as soon as I can.

I have to say, it is a constant struggle to try to recreate things for my kids when I don't have a lot of money, and the historical records can be so full of holes. I try to have my kids make and DO as much as possible (i.e. constructing accurate scale models of hoplons, cutting and sewing their own tunics and footwear, making and experimenting with their own clay oil lamps, engaging in phalanx drills, etc.). I guess one of the biggest lessons I try to teach them is learning to look at textbooks, T.V. programs, and movies (especially the horrible specialty kinds that are dumbed-down for kids) with a very critical eye.

My motto is, "Don't build me a cute, little diorama of an Assyrian house...make me one authentic mud brick (complete with straw and dung), and you will have shown me you have learned something important about our ancestors."

Right now (besides the marching camp) my two biggest struggles are figuring out a cheap, sort-of-authentic way to fabricate a shield boss so that we can construct a good scutum (complete with plywood construction and leather facing), and have the kids manufacture samples of chain mail. I'd love to have them rivet it properly, but that guy who sells the mail tool and dye (spelling?) kit on line is way out of my price range.

By the way, I want the kids to stake out the marching camp. I would be thrilled if I could have them dig a small section of trench to see how much was involved, but I'll need a lot of parent tool donations...especially pickaxes, because our soil is terribly rocky. It would also be incredible if I could have my kids construct a very small section of Roman-style road! What a hoot!

I'm also scrambling to figure out wood dimensions so they can construct their own 6' trebuchet this Spring. Any advice is really welcome (especially the proper way to make a missile sling).

Keep doing the wonderful work ya'll do,

Sincerely,

Mac

[Salvianus]

And what are Tituli?

It's the Latin for "titters", see Howard, F 1971 Up Pompeii Elstree: Colin & Rothwell

:lol:

Sorry, they are the plural of titulum, short sections of rampart and ditch sometimes built forward of the wall circuit across the gate openings, to block a direct attack, as opoosed to 'clavicular' gates, which are turns in the wall in order to create a kind of protected passageway.

[Paullus Scipio]

It's the Latin for "titters", see Howard, F 1971 Up Pompeii Elstree: Colin & Rothwell

....and they come in pairs.....ooo..oo..oh ! Stop it now!....I know the subject is "camp" but this is getting ridiculous !
...any way, as I was saying..."The Prologue.."

[Magnus]

lol, thanks guys! Do we have any information on the depth and width of ditch and ramparts on fortifications of this size?