Tattoos in Roman Military/Society

[Tarbicus]

extra material and dyes all cost money ergo white short sleevless were the norm.

Now there's a bold statement. Care to back it up with evidence? You need to justify how a Roman legionary wouldn't be able to afford a coloured tunic. :wink:

[Celtic505]

Anything on what designs would be tattooed on soldiers? Perhaps names, unit designs, etc?

[Magnus]

I was wondering about how my tattoos would make my Roman impression look rather innaccurate but it led me to wonder about the practice of tattooing in Roman society but particularly the Roman army. I honestly know nothing of the practice in Roman society but know tattoos have been around quite long before the Romans, the only exmaple of Roman tattoos I've heard of is Maximus' SPQR tattoo in Gladiator. But hollywood aside, is there anything out there that speaks of this practice among soldiers? Was it frowned upon, punishable, encouraged, seen as a mark of lower status or not even done at all? Anybody know of any ancient writings or references, or perhaps examples in art of the period?

Dennis, if you're worried about how tattoos might ruin your impression, then driving up to an event in an "automobile" is going to sink you even worse.

Relax about it bud. If you want 100% accuracy, better start studying quantum mechanics so you can go back in time. 8)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

What?? You mean you guys haven't started the prototype work yet????
Come onnnnnnnn whats the hold up ? :roll:

[petrinus]

extra material and dyes all cost money ergo white short sleevless were the norm.

Now there's a bold statement. Care to back it up with evidence? You need to justify how a Roman legionary wouldn't be able to afford a coloured tunic. :wink:

i shouldnt have spoken so "factualy" ive just read different opinions on the color and cut of tunics. simplicity and cost seemed what was offered up as explanation regularly. not that a legionare couldnt afford to dye his clothing but as it would be extra cost and time, perhaps why? also some say centurions wore red and legionares wore white....in any case, i elect to wear a red sleeved tunic(to hide tatoo) with adjustable lengths. im sure the legionare had other things to spend his hard fought for "fortune" on besides dyes. if anyone has the definitive answer on tunic colors and constructs please by all means square it away, as it seems to be argued/contested/commented a whole lot....but in short, yeah, i was just sayn "maybe"?

[Tarbicus]

not that a legionare couldnt afford to dye his clothing but as it would be extra cost and time, perhaps why?

Why engrave intricate decorative motifs and symbols onto helmets? Why enamel them, or silver or tin them? Why fringe a sagum or have it tablet woven or even use intricate plaids? Why inlay silver, niello, brass or enamel into pugio sheaths and belts? Why tin umbones and spinae? Why paint your career's journeys onto your shield cover? Why engrave hamata hooks, and emboss pectorals, and engrave mythical characters into your cheek pieces? Why not just have a plain wooden scabbard with a crappy bit of leather sewn onto it and not bother with the decorative lockets, chapes, etc?

Unless all that cost so much you couldn't afford a simply dyed tunic which your mother, wife or sister might have made for you anyway? Not that I'm suggesting that pretty much every household in the ancient world could have made these on a regular basis. :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

So they didn't just nip down to M&S then? :? roll:

[Memmia]

So they didn't just nip down to M&S then? :? roll:

Marcvs and Sparticvs ? :wink:

[petrinus]

do we assume that every legionare was so fortunate? that the average lay soldier is the one represented in art? im sure all aspired to excess, despite roman conservativism, just dont think it was as rampant among jr soldiers maybe.
furthermore i would say depending on the times and subsequent taxes that that might determine in part what a houshold was producing to a particular level of luxury?
as to military equipment im sure the soldier held his actual arms and armor in higher regard than his underwear, and certain things like unit identifiers and the like would of course be painted and held in higher regard
again i dont know nor do i pretend to be an authority, like all of us i continue to learn and i appreciate that you challenge my ideas, conclusions and the like

how available was dye anyway? was the extra cost something a typical pleb household would spend money on?

this sure has come along way from tatoos,lol.

[Tarbicus]

And I'm not saying every soldier had a fancy and expensive tunic, but I will say that most soldiers had fancy equipment, or that's the way it seems from the archaeological record.

Let's swing it to something we can see in the more modern record as something of a comparison; Now your everyday average Joe and Jane may not be wearing Prada or Gucci, but that doesn't stop them from wanting to look good, and this can be seen not only in the First World, but also in the Third World and non-industrial cultures.
http://www.crystalinks.com/apache.html

And here's a selection of categories one of my favourite sites, which I sometimes refer to when I'm uhmmming-and-aaahhing over whether to
go for something as drab as many people believe only pre-industrial cultures could make, or a colourful or decorative 'statement' about Roman culture and a Roman man:
http://www.old-picture.com/theme-index-001.htm
http://www.old-picture.com/arabs-index-001.htm
http://www.old-picture.com/arapaho-index-001.htm
http://www.old-picture.com/apache-index-001.htm
http://www.old-picture.com/arikara-index-001.htm
http://www.old-picture.com/bedouins-index-001.htm
http://www.old-picture.com/blackfoot-index-001.htm
http://www.old-picture.com/braves-index-001.htm

Now there is a lot of plain textile to be seen, but there's also a lot of decoration, and especially with the last one, Braves, near every brave has seemingly rich adornment. A great number of textiles can also be seen to have woven-in stripes and plaids, etc. Unfortunately, most are B&W so we can't see the colours.

http://www.old-picture.com/indians-index-001.htm
http://www.old-picture.com/middle-east-index-001.htm

When it comes to dyes, I'm sure the choice was limited, but this presumes that Rome was non-industrial. But I disagree with that - it was pre-steam engine is all. And what of the Celts, etc? So often we see the re-enactors choice limited to drab and dull colours, but in fact so many surviving pieces of textile I've seen, including coptic material, is colourful and sometimes highly intricate. One look at this thread with the Thorsbjerg reconstruction in, then I get a sense that we're transplanting modern western jeans and t-shirt fashion onto a rich and varied ancient culture. At the end of the day, dyes were made from natural products, and although some were highly expensive (indigo springs to mind), others must have been readily available. I'm not dismissing there being plenty of plain tunics about (but that doesn't mean always un-dyed), but I would never say that soldiers in particular had some preference for drabness when more recent warriors from non-agricultural hunter-gatherer cultures can clearly be seen to be highly decorated in a less industrial and economically organised way than the Romans had access to.

Let's take the dress of these poor Bolivian people (NB the last photo): http://www.elstonhill.com/People_Bolivia.html and Guatamala: http://www.atitlan.com/mayandress/ (NB, the third to last photo)
The fact is that even though they probably have very little money, there is a desire to be colourful when simpler and more drab textiles might save them money.

Sure, more colourful than probably your average Roman, but perhaps you get a sense of why I cringe when an image of Monty Python-esque medieval peasants is proposed as being the Roman dress sense?
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity ... llager.jpg
:wink:

To further illustrate my feelings on the subject of decoration and colour, here are some pics of traditional European peasant and traditional clothing:
Polish:
http://www.diversehamilton.ca/europeanC ... Woman.html
http://www.diversehamilton.ca/europeanC ... tumes.html
http://www.diversehamilton.ca/europeanC ... Woman.html
http://www.diversehamilton.ca/europeanC ... wyMan.html
Czech

Breton
China 1 and China 2 and China 3
Kurdish
Ukranian

And this is an interesting link http://www.hri.org/GAFS/thrace.html with the following quote:

The poor quality of the soil of the Florina plateaus, prevented the local residents from wearing clothing of expensive material. The nearby forest offered some resources, such as timber, charcoal and bee-keeping, but the people lived a life of deprivation and hardship. The women wove their own cotton and woolen cloth from which they sewed their simple, austere dresses. The white cotton chemise was embroidered around the hem line and on the sleeves with colored threads. The opening of the front of the chemise was bordered by brightly-colored fabric. A floral patterned jabot of bought fabric was placed at the opening of the bodice. A black woolen, sleeveless overcoat, the sigouni, was worn over this. This overcoat was embroidered around the neck and on the front with brightly-colored threads. The sash, approximately two meters in length, was made of black wool and tied around the waist at the top of the apron. The black and red apron was always home spun and woven. The simple black scarf, placed upon the head, was adorned with a string of pearls. These pearls were considered to be part of the dowry.

More examples here: http://www.hri.org/GAFS/other.html and it's worth following the other links to different regions.

No matter how you look at it, there's always been a desire by all cultures to 'look your best'. Perhaps the Puritans went against that, but I see them as an exception to the rule, by and large.

One more interesting reference to Oriental traditional dress: http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/etext/tilke/index.html

And as a final example, look at how Augustus got so fed up with the new and dull, drab, cloaks that were becoming the fashion in Rome he banned them from court.

This might seem to take us away from tattoos, but I don't believe it does. I think all forms of fashion, be it clothing, tattooing or piercing, should be looked at as a whole, and not each as a displaced part.

[petrinus]

a lil more research on the matter turned up this

the average soldier recieved 225 denarii a yr.

to feed a peasent /pleb family of four it cost apprx 150 denarii

a single soldier which i understand most were, it cost 60 denarii a yr

these are just costs in grain which is estimated 2/3 of a romans intake, i dont have figures for the actual food he likely overspent on, i mean if i want steak...... or sleeves and red dye...im going for the beef brother. the likes of my linen probably not a priority.

as i have to furnish equipment for myself and pay taxes yet.

now as to elaborate decorative equipment, seems i was pissn round the right tree as far as military gear(arms n armor) being the more importanmt stuff to dress up, beautify and the like, but the more i looked into the lay soldier...not even so much.

the earlier helmets, montefortino, coolus types and even the italics(barring the "d") were pretty bland. seems MOST armor was too.
now the artsy fartsy gauls inspired new motifs in roman equipment, and if you were a well paid praetorian or centurion, legatus and the like you might have some real elaborate armor, but im not finding were the common soldier did, in any excess.

now the pugio as ive learned was infact a hot lil item that at a particular point in romes history really demonstrated a soldiers pride and prowress, the most decorative of his items actualy, a display of his wealth/worth/rank/station etc...and then at times, it is the opinion of one michael simkins, they were all mostly unadorned and pretty much a utility knife.

so wear what ye will, spend where ye must, find with strenght and honor, revere the gods, and may victory be ours.

[Tarbicus]

the earlier helmets, montefortino,...were pretty bland.

I don't agree with that, given the punched decorations on them, some of which are highly intricate, especially on the neck guard. Once we get into coolus territory then we start to see more and more decorative belts. As for Simkins' view of the plain pugiones, where are they?

[maius]

Great thread, I have a large USMC tattoo on my left forearm, got it after graduating Boot Camp in 1964. Never regretted it til now! :lol:

I guess i'll have to come up with some kind of period bandage or somthing to wear at events.

Maius/Bill

[Tarbicus]

the average soldier recieved 225 denarii a yr.

to feed a peasent /pleb family of four it cost apprx 150 denarii

a single soldier which i understand most were, it cost 60 denarii a yr

these are just costs in grain which is estimated 2/3 of a romans intake, i dont have figures for the actual food he likely overspent on, i mean if i want steak...... or sleeves and red dye...im going for the beef brother. the likes of my linen probably not a priority.

as i have to furnish equipment for myself and pay taxes yet.

From my 2nd to previous post:

The poor quality of the soil of the Florina plateaus, prevented the local residents from wearing clothing of expensive material. The nearby forest offered some resources, such as timber, charcoal and bee-keeping, but the people lived a life of deprivation and hardship. The women wove their own cotton and woolen cloth from which they sewed their simple, austere dresses. The white cotton chemise was embroidered around the hem line and on the sleeves with colored threads. The opening of the front of the chemise was bordered by brightly-colored fabric. A floral patterned jabot of bought fabric was placed at the opening of the bodice. A black woolen, sleeveless overcoat, the sigouni, was worn over this. This overcoat was embroidered around the neck and on the front with brightly-colored threads. The sash, approximately two meters in length, was made of black wool and tied around the waist at the top of the apron. The black and red apron was always home spun and woven. The simple black scarf, placed upon the head, was adorned with a string of pearls. These pearls were considered to be part of the dowry.

And this is what they wore:

[Memmia]

Great thread, I have a large USMC tattoo on my left forearm, got it after graduating Boot Camp in 1964. Never regretted it til now! :lol:

I guess i'll have to come up with some kind of period bandage or somthing to wear at events.

Maius/Bill

I wouldn't regret that tattoo, that's a nice memento
I agree with what Matt stated earlier telling people to relax about tattoos

How about people come up with a Latin motto for your tattoo instead for the purposes of reenactment ?

I can think of a few words to fill in the blanks

U....?
Semper
Miles
C....?

What do you think ?