Tattoos in Roman Military/Society

[petrinus]

interesting points you all make, good thread- agreed and i do agree that almost all in every culture seek to emulate the best and brightest- i just dont think most could manage.
i maintain that the soldiers emphasis would be his equipment but not until later in history or further along in rank were most soldiers given to excessively decorating their gear, sure near all of them had evidence of SOME artistry and excess, but i dont think most were bling blinging on the battlefield.
the blander monteforntini and coolus types were still in use in the 2nd century, and as i understand it is debated what decorative armors were worn in battle or merely paraded.
simkins assertion, i'll have to look more into, i found his information cited on another legions website.
to tie another modern thought/sentiment to our(or atleast my) ancestors is this, today most men couldnt give a shit about their t shirt or jeans, but things like watches, handguns, cars, whatever is a measure of their "success" by what particular items their caste may covet. now mayhaps the patrician roman, the tribunes, and the like were more concerned with clothes....like these douchbags on wallstreet in their suits n ties all day, but a soldier like myself, then and now, most of us concern ourselves with our gear and form and function take the drivers seat.

wanted to say also clever that you tied fashion to the tattoo bit, in further reflection ...agreed, nicely stated.

also i looked into the dye process and availability...to your credit, seems there were a variety of reds rather inexpensive as well. the purple was the most expensive and was developed by the phoenicians, tyrian purple i believe it was? derived from sea snails...guess it was grusome process and reaked something awful!

[Tarbicus]

Well, I just received a copy of Rosenstein's Rome at War: Farms, Families, and Death in the Middle Republic, which seems to deal a lot with the economic and social issues that we're touching on. If anything relevant crops up I'll post it.

[petrinus]

thanks tarbicus, what manner of media is that anyway?

[Tarbicus]

thanks tarbicus, what manner of media is that anyway?

Plain old book, half of which seems to be notes.

[L C Cinna]

a lil more research on the matter turned up this

the average soldier recieved 225 denarii a yr.

to feed a peasent /pleb family of four it cost apprx 150 denarii

a single soldier which i understand most were, it cost 60 denarii a yr

these are just costs in grain which is estimated 2/3 of a romans intake, i dont have figures for the actual food he likely overspent on, i mean if i want steak...... or sleeves and red dye...im going for the beef brother. the likes of my linen probably not a priority.

as i have to furnish equipment for myself and pay taxes yet.

Don't forget the extras (most authors forget them as well imho). There are extra payments for special events like coronation, birthdays, triumphs, something elese connected with the emperor or something, plus probable rewards, a quite big sum when entering the army and if you have the chance to participate in a war booty and slaves... I can't give you numbers right now ( I'll check tomorrow, I promise)
but I'd guess you can add another 100 per year as a low average
additionally most food was provided cheep by the army, his slaves might run some business,...



I'm still of the opinion that the Roman soldiers are very well payed

[M. Demetrius]

On campaign, no small amount of food was provided (albeit unwillingly) by the people near the camp. When the Roman soldiers were out "foraging", the local people probably called it "cattle rustling" and "crop stealing", don't you think? I doubt they said much out loud about it, though, hoping they could keep the house and barn from becoming charcoal. :x

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

We Romans prefer to call it 'Requisitioned by the military' :wink: :lol:

or am i getting time periods mixed up here..... :?

[petrinus]

good point, intelligent, entertaining, and im LMAO.

how were the spoils split between the surviving romans? how did the lay soldier assert his possession over any spoils wouldnt sr soldiers get near everything worth a damn?

[Tarbicus]

good point, intelligent, entertaining, and im LMAO.

how were the spoils split between the surviving romans? how did the lay soldier assert his possession over any spoils wouldnt sr soldiers get near everything worth a damn?

The commanding officer took a large portion, the rest divided between the men according to rank IIRC. Slaves would be included in that, the sale of which was (again IIRC) allocated to contractors. Part of the oath the men took (every morning was it?) when swearing allegiance swore them to hand over spoils to their tribunes.

[Tarbicus]

BTW, if anyone's looking to "barbarise" their impression temporarily, would the first two tattoos be appropriate do you think?
http://www.mauiceltic.com/shop/prod-listing.php?cat=23

[Memmia]

BTW, if anyone's looking to "barbarise" their impression temporarily, would the first two tattoos be appropriate do you think?
http://www.mauiceltic.com/shop/prod-listing.php?cat=23

Be careful where you place these 'temporary' tattoos. Especially the plastic transfer type- they tend to have to wear off. It's a bit embarrassing walking around for nearly 3 days with a tribal design in the middle of your forehead, barbed wire and badly placed skulls around your neck as my friend and I found out years ago when we decided to have a laugh with some of these after school. My friend also inked 'A.C.A.B' on her fingers with permanent marker pen :oops: :lol:

[M. Demetrius]

Well, for the permanent marker, men's shaving lotion (or denatured alcohol, which is the main evaporative agent in it) will take the marker off the skin. Found that out when babysitting one day, and was in dire need before the wife came home and found the "tattooed" little daughter. A boon of a discovery. (she did ask, "How come Ruth smells like shaving lotion?" but that was easier to explain....) :lol: :wink:

[Timotheus]

extra material and dyes all cost money ergo white short sleevless were the norm.

Now there's a bold statement. Care to back it up with evidence? You need to justify how a Roman legionary wouldn't be able to afford a coloured tunic. :wink:

i shouldnt have spoken so "factualy" ive just read different opinions on the color and cut of tunics. simplicity and cost seemed what was offered up as explanation regularly. not that a legionare couldnt afford to dye his clothing but as it would be extra cost and time, perhaps why? also some say centurions wore red and legionares wore white....in any case, i elect to wear a red sleeved tunic(to hide tatoo) with adjustable lengths. im sure the legionare had other things to spend his hard fought for "fortune" on besides dyes. if anyone has the definitive answer on tunic colors and constructs please by all means square it away, as it seems to be argued/contested/commented a whole lot....but in short, yeah, i was just sayn "maybe"?

It is a quite common feature of the military. The British Army wore red for so long because it was the cheapest die to use and they were going to be using a lot of it.

Being cheap is like being lazy. It is a great explanation for many things that would otherwise look like a conspiracy. ;-) )

[Tarbicus]

It is a quite common feature of the military. The British Army wore red for so long because it was the cheapest die to use and they were going to be using a lot of it.

Being cheap is like being lazy. It is a great explanation for many things that would otherwise look like a conspiracy. ;-) )

It's actually no evidence of the ancient military whatsoever, where even the Macedonians gave such an impressive display that the Romans refused to engage.

How do you know economics was the prime force behind madder red for the British army? Perhaps initially under the New Model Army, but maybe identity through colour was a driving factor?

I don't know, but yet another unsupported statement has been made, and you need to defend it :wink:

[petrinus]

i read in an article on dyes that madder besides 1) being cheap was 2)also the more durable....so given what i read was correct, there ya go.

ofcourse things i read and accepted as possible/probable also got me into a tangle with tarbicus, lol....as i had read peoples opinions on cut and color of the tunic, sigh....just cant trust what ya read anymore, same reason i quit watchn the news.


hey, completely unrelated tarb,...i need some sound expertise on the 7th century bc and i dont have immediate resources. in particular roman cav equipment. im writing fact based fiction and i need to detail the roman horse soldier some. this would be in king marcius' time. any recommends on conversational leads?