Did they or didn\'t they ?

[Julius Verax]

Hi , Can anyone clear this up for me please ? A guy asked me at work today if I was a centurion , I said no Iam a Legionary then he asked is there any proof of Centurions wearing Lorica Segmentata ? I could'nt anwser him honestly as I didn't know for sure .

What do you lot think ? I would appreciate your input .


Julius .

[Tarbicus]

Who knows? AFAIK there's only one grave stele showing seg at all; everything else is on dodgy monumental reliefs.

[Methos]

I ran into some nice fellas a few days ago, within the Roma SPQR sim in Second Life and this very question came up. One of the fellas...and bear in mind that this is Second Life we're talking about...was a spotted albino leopard, standing on his hind legs, clad in Lorica Segmentata with a Centurio's helmet. He stated that, to the best of his knowledge, a Centurio would've correctly been wearing Lorica Hamata, rather than Segmentata. This truly had me wondering, as I see no logical reason why a Centurio would not wear Segmentata, if it were available for his use.

On a side note, I came to discover that the Albino Leopard Centurio actually created and sells his Legionary gear in Second Life and I found it to be so fantastic that I bought a complete set of his virtual kit. So, now I'm at least able to do some virtual re-enactment! :wink: Hopefully this thread will definitively answer whether or not I can get away with wearing the Centurio helmet with that virtual Segmentata. Julius' question has been on my mind for a while as well.

[jvrjenivs]

I personally would say a centurio could wear a segmentata. I mean, when the segmentata came into use, that wasn't without a reason, I suppose. As a officer, wouldn't you have the same 'new goodies' as you miles? But as others mentioned before, we don't know, as only one grave stele was found.

More general, as many finds of segmentata pieces where found in auxilia fortresses, I also wouldn't just predict the use of the segmentata to legionairies only, althrough thats a widely discussed item.

[Peroni]

A few grave stele of centuriones show sets of phalerae. These are very hard to wear over plate armour, especially due to the shoulder guard plates, but easy to fit over something more flexible and better fitted to the body such as mail or scale. These are the armour types seen on the grave stele.

Have a look in the imagebase you will see what I mean.

p.s. Our centurio wears seg :wink:

[Marcus Iulius Chattus]

I never see a "German" Centurio with a Seg! My own Centurio wears a hamata, too, for the same reasons as Peroni states.

[Magnus]

From this thread: http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... segmentata

Mike Bishop's reply:

"I was joking, but there is a serious point there. There are very few representations of centurions in armour and, given the paucity of depictions of segmentata in general, I don't think it's possible to categorically say centurions did not wear lorica seg. Now my principle as an archaeologist trained as an ancient historian (and thus doubly anal!) is always to stick to the available evidence, so I would say what little we have to work from indicates centurions wore mail or scale... but then it also shows us ordinary legionaries wore those types of armour as well as segmentata. As ever, accidents of survival could mask reality and (altogether now) absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In such circumstances I see no problem in reconstructing a centurion in lorica seg so long as nobody starts saying 'this is how it was done' rather than 'this might have been how it was done' (because that is how factoids are born). I even recall Peter talking to me about this reconstruction, since he thought it slightly mischievous to depict the brass fittings on the centurion's cuirass as being tinned or silvered, possibly to distinguish it from the 'ordinary' armour, and wondering if anyone would notice (they have now;-). "

[Magnus]

A few grave stele of centuriones show sets of phalerae. These are very hard to wear over plate armour, especially due to the shoulder guard plates, but easy to fit over something more flexible and better fitted to the body such as mail or scale. These are the armour types seen on the grave stele.

Have a look in the imagebase you will see what I mean.

p.s. Our centurio wears seg :wink:

Read the link to the thread I posted. The ones who have phalerae sets used longer straps and indicated no trouble with the harness. Since this "fit" issue is easily overcome, I don't think it's a disqualifier for a centurio wearing segs.

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Anyone ever read Caesar's Legion by Stephen Dando-Collins?
There is a chapter in there that talks about Legio Ferrata Fidelas and mentions their centurion wearing something that fits the description of a seg. His stuff looks pretty well researched and notated...

[Peroni]

Read the link to the thread I posted. The ones who have phalerae sets used longer straps and indicated no trouble with the harness. Since this "fit" issue is easily overcome, I don't think it's a disqualifier for a centurio wearing segs.

I never said it was. But it's easier. Like I said, (and so did Mike B) that the evidence we have is just for scale and mail. Yet still our Centurion wears seg.

[Julius Verax]

Thanks everyone for your comments , I guess its gonna be a topic for debate for many years to come . Even though there is limited evidence for the wearing of Lorica we cant rule it out completely . I'll just have to tell the guy how asked the question that It is possible for a centurion to have worn Lorica , theres no reason why not but we just dont know for sure .

Thanks again ,

Julius . :wink:

[Magnus]

I never said it was. But it's easier. Like I said, (and so did Mike B) that the evidence we have is just for scale and mail. Yet still our Centurion wears seg.

Hmmm...I'm not sure I'd even qualify that as evidence of much. It's such a small sample from a group who's membership over the span of even 100 years probably numbered at least in the hundreds.

It's like saying we have no sculptural evidence that centuriones used mainz gladii....I wish there was more.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes i read Dando-colling Book a while ago. Seemed pretty good to me!

[Tarbicus]

Do a search on Dando-Collins and you'll find he can't really be taken seriously, as he presents a lot of stuff as fact but won't reveal sources. Note that he'll say he spent 30 years researching a book but will state in the foreword it's too boring for the general reader, or words to that effect. It's a massive shame as he'd turn the history of the VI Ferrata on its head, as an example.

[M. Demetrius]

Not to mention the 10th's history, Tarbicus! I once quoted Mr. D-C and got in hot water before I found out he sort of takes a creative view of known historical events. It's like the politician who says, "you can always believe me whenever I tell the truth."