Greek Bronze Greaves

[Chris B]

I am also making a pair of Bronze Greeves to compliment the cuirass I am currently working. I do not see anywhere in RAT where the process of making greeves in the Greek style is fully discussed.

Has anyone here made a pair of well fitted muscled greeves?

I have studied the three dimensional diagram made by Tarbicus and adapted it into a two dimensional form for my legs as best I could. I needed something to trace onto the sheet to use as a pattern for initial cutting so I tried to take his three dimensional pattern and collapse it into two dimensions. Here is how I plan to do it:

1) Trace two dimensional pattern on to 16 gauge (0.05") bronze and cutout using a 34-36 tpi jig saw blade.
2) File down the edges.
3) Drill small holes every 1/2" around the perimeter for sewing on a trim later.
4) Draw guides with a sharpie to curve the greeves to my individual calf structure and curveature of my lower leg.
5) Begin by dishing the knee cap area and begin the curve at the upper portion of the leg.
6) Begin slowly dishing the calf muscle itself into the greeves.
7) Smooth out the calf muscle to a near smooth finish.
8) Finish curving the rest of the greeve around the leg. Then curve the lower portion of the greeve just over the instep away from the leg slightly.
9) Finishing work and polish for the metal.
10) Glue one to two layers of wool felt to the inside of the greeve
11) Glue a leather strip as a trim to the edge following the full edge of the greeve.
12) Stitch through the previously drilled holes to further secure the leather trim to the greeve.

The reason I am posting this is to get more imput on the physical process of making these and then to eventually have a pretty iron clad set of instructions contained here for others to copy should they need it.

I think the key is going to be to work from the outside dishing towards the center. Once the greeve is curved more fully around the leg, I see know way to hammer inside it. It is just too small of a diameter, especially with my small legs.

Any input is definately appreciated and wanted. Thanks.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I have once tried to make a pair of greaves but failed. The first time I used too thick brass and the other too thin. What is difficult to achieve,but essential ,is the curvature of your chin. If you don't make this fit, your knee will not be covered propperly and you won't be able to bent your knee and walk properly. Also, it's possible that some of the work should be done by raising and not dishing. But I'm not an expert on that. Others here know better. The chin curves in two directions, due to the muscles. The center of the chin makes an outward curve to the front and side. If you don't achieve this,the knee will never fit properly. It can also be tricky to make the curve around the ankle,that allows you to walk. All in all, I find the greaves more difficult than a cuirass to make,because the legs are always moving and this requires perfect fit.
Good Luck in that project,too!
Khaire
Giannis

[Matthew Amt]

Hooo, best of luck! I don't recall all the details of making mine, years ago, but it was a pain and they are not very good. They don't curve to fit my legs properly. Also, I used 18-gauge bronze and I think that's too thick because they really don't "spring" onto my leg, so I would never use 16-gauge! Getting these on and off is a literal pain...

Holes around the edge for a lining are common on earlier types, but disappear by 500 BC, it seems. Probably about the same time that the same holes disappear on helmets, would be my guess. So my leather linings are glued in. But yeah, DEFINITELY be prepared to put in some padding!

If I were going to try another pair of these (being more experienced by now!), I'd start with some scrap steel first, and keep notes. With the bronze, you may want to do quite a bit of annealing to get those complex curves.

Good luck, and please share some photos! Khaire,

Matthew

[Chris B]

Thanks. I remember reading your page about your greeves. I just didn't recall the gauge. I based mine off of the Manning Imperial Greeves and they use 16 gauge. I plan on using my front plate for my failed cuirass to experiment with so I am working in the same gauge and metal as the ones I will eventually make from another clean sheet.

Well I am out to the garage to work. I have already started my second attempt at the cuirass and it is coming along a little better than the first.

[Chris B]

I think we are making this way too complicated Matt and Giannis. I have been really thinking deeply about how I am going to overcome the issues you both warned me of with the greeves and noticed this picture below.

Look carefully at the one greeve on the bottom row that is dead center. I think the key to getting them to fit right is simply "skewing" the form higher on one side.

Basically, to get a two dimensional template, take your form and draw the angle that your leg takes from your knee to your ankle and then shorten the width for the side to the inside of each leg and start the curve higher on the leg for the two dimension cutout. Then do the exact opposite on the outside. Lengthen the width and start the curve from the knee a bit lower on the leg.

Look at the picture as a guide. It is flat, but the knee dishing and the two halves of the back side of the calf are still dished. That is exactly what I am thinking. Cut your metal out to look more like this picture, skewed. Dish the knee. Dish the calves and just turn the metal to the right angle of your own leg to check it. Then lightly hammer a slight groove following the knee to the instep to get the metal bending in the right direction using a large ball peen, and hammer the full thing around the leg.

Of course this is theory at this point, but I really think it will work and prove to be less difficult than originally thought. The trick will be constantly fitting it for minor adjustments. Anyone disagree? Regardless, we'll have proof/evidence of the theory in about a week.

PS. I don't mean to assume that you haven't thought about that, just an observation at this point that hopefully will help get it right for me and anyone else doing them.

[Chris B]

Okay. I am coming to ANYONE with advice on how to shape these things. I am at the point that I am spouting colorful metaphors about these things.

I have enough scrap to attempt them 3 times though. I made my first template today and cut out metal. It is not easy and I already wish I had lighter gauge metal. The only thing I am sure of is that when they are done, they will not get disfigured easily at all.

Todays attempt was too big so I hammered it back flat with much effort and am going to shave it down and rework it as a run through. Once I get the size right and experiment more with shaping it, I will cut out a clean piece and start over again.

I also don't know what I was thinking. I have small calves and I was dishing Hercules muscles. It would have never fit like a glove that way. I tried curving it on a small tree and that seemed to start working. I fully understand what you meant by curving it two directions now Giannis. It is definately a pain in the rear!

Matt,
I understand why you say you hated them. I already agree!
I am planning on curving them to my legs first, then dishing the knee, and then shaping the calves using the different size shot puts UNLESS someone else has a better idea.

I really could use some advice from any of your successes or failures on what to do and not to do!

Oh and PS: Why did you Greeks make greeves so thin in that pic above? I started really looking at them and was shocked! Did your ancestors use a war Ostrich. Man some of those greeves are thin to say the least. :lol: I don't even think my forearm could fit inside that one on the bottom row.

[Matthew Amt]

Sorry, Chris, but at this point I think we're all in awe of your obvious natural talent, and fully expect to be getting advice from YOU as you gain experience! So we're cheering you on, but dunno how we might help.

A big part of my difficulties with my greaves was that I did not have any kind of stake or form which could reach inside the things for shaping and plannishing. So if you have any kind of ball or mushroom stake with a long or even angled stalk, things should be much easier.

As for skinny greaves, I'm guessing you mean that one near the right end of the bottom row? It's probably just squashed flat--would have been more manly originally, like the rest.

Go, go, go!! Rah, Chris! Hammer that metal! And, uh, let us know how it works out, eh?

Matthew

[Chris B]

Okay. Thanks. I am getting a small wood post for fences on ranches which is roughly the diameter of my leg to dish a portion of it, and then I will try a ball and post. I am taking the day off today though, being Sunday. I will start again Monday, but probably won't start my final run through until about 8 days due to a family trip.

I'll check back for any advice, but expect pics in about 10 days on progress. Thanks.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

P I'd start by dishing the general curve. This will probably turn the whole sheet a bit, though i don't know how such thick metal will work. The dish the knee(after it has been turned to the right angle. The calves should not need a lot of dishing,rather than forming the back part in the curves of your leg. The crucial point it the front curve of the calf and knee.
Don't know how i could be of an help.
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

I do have some success to post already. I have no doubt in my mind that I figured the knee problem out already. I apologize if anyone knows this, and I am not meaning to point out the obvious, but here goes...

This process is done in inches so convert to metric for the world outside the US (as if I needed to say it :roll: ). Measure the length in the first picture to find out how tall your greeves should be. (THIS PICTURE IS FROM TARBICUS)

The rest of this corresponds to my diagram posted here. Note that the diagram is 1/3 scale roughly.

STEP 1:
Mark every inch for the height of the greeve on a piece of posterboard/paper/etc. It helps to have a grid on your paper. Then use a fabric tape to measure the circumference of your leg every inch from the bottom of where the greeve will hit to the top of the greeve. NOTE: You do not need to do this above the knee because the greeve does not wrap completely around the leg after the top of the calf.

Next, subtract 1 1/2 to 2 inches from the measurements so that there is a gap at the back of the greeve once it is bent to slide it on your leg. Plot these measurements at each inch mark all the way up the leg and then draw the outside perimeter for your template on ONE side.

Once you get above the knee, draw a dome top and curve it to meet up with the section that curves around the calf. Fold your paper in half by the center line and draw the same curve on the opposite side. AT THIS POINT YOUR GREEVE IS PERFECTLY SYMETRICAL. It helps to make two of these to use from this point forward.

STEP 2:
Hold a yard stick on the center line of your lower leg splitting your lower leg in half. At the point your leg starts to bend towards your knee, measure how far this is from the bottom most point of your greeve and mark its height on your template.

Now take measurements from the yard stick to the bone every inch from the point it starts bending to the inside of your lower leg and continue to take these measurements each inch up your leg to the height that corresponds to the center of the knee. For me, my leg started to bend at about 14 1/2" in height so I took measurements at 15", 16", 17", 18". Now plot the points on your template and draw a line showing the angle of the bend for your knee.

At the height that your leg starts to bend, also draw a line perfectly perpendicular to the center line and cut off everything above that line.

STEP 3:
Now draw a line perpendicular to the angled line that is following the true curveature of your leg at the point it starts to curve inside. Take the upper portion of the greeve that you cut off in the previous step and place it on the new x and y axis and trace it to your second template.

STEP 4:
Now start to connect the curve above the point that your leg starts to bend to the portion of the greeves that is symetrical below this point. The outside of the leg will bend more sharply than the inside curve. The inside curve will be more gradual. The reason for this is because you are "warping" your template to the curve of the knee and you want the lower portion to still wrap tightly to your lower leg comfortably.

STEP 5:
This is your final template. Notice the similarities with the greeve in the museum case I posted above. The greeve in the case that is flattened is for a left leg and this one I just walked you through is for the right. Also keep in mind that everyone's legs are different lengths, thickness, etc. so the exact curveature for the outside of the greeve will vary. The thing I want to point out is the way the lines curve from the knee to the lower portion of the greeve in two dimension.

STEP 6 (NO PIC):
When you start working the metal. I find that you should LIGHTLY dish a groove from the point that your leg starts to bend to the knee to the center of the knee. So basically, dish the knee partially before you start curving the lower section of the greeve. This will force the metal to keep that bend as you work the rest of it.

Next, curve the lower section of the greeve around your calf and get it perfectly right before moving on to dishing the knee completely or curving the metal completely for the knee.

FINAL NOTE:
At this point, I have not finished my project, but I have spent considerable time working on my first piece of metal trying to figure it out. I am certain that this will produce the correct result. The first attempt was a little too big because I left to much excess over the measurements I took, but it did prove that the knee and instep met up properly and the greeve will bend if you do it this way. I will post pics once I start the final run through next week. Expect pictures in roughly 14 days.

I am confident I solved the curveature problem. Now I just need to get the skills necessary to complete the rest of the hammering!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Good planning Chris, keep going! 8)

[Chris B]

I guess it is time for my first update. I took a week off and picked up my prototype tonight for the first time. I am working on this all week and weekend until I either have succeeded or failed. I think I can pull it off, but it may not be professional level obviously.

First, this prototype is NOT cut skewed like my form shown above so the final one will definately have even more curve. I will also preface all this with the comment that these are a pain in the back side, painful to fit during the process and seem to be more feel than science in making.

I am not slightly afraid of the curve anymore. The key is definately the skew and hammering. This greeve is rough as heck so it is hard to see the curve with the lumps, but it hugs my leg like a glove and lines up properly (I hope I can do it again on the final run :lol: ).

You have to curve the greeve generally first around the leg, and then I am using various size shot puts to hammer against on the inside of the greeve. I'll try my best to explain: I hammered a groove around the bone up to the point of the curve lightly and basically hammered small grooves curving to the inside to meet up with the knee. Then I started to flatten the metal in the direction of the bend, instead of leaving it circular around the leg. Ironically enough, this action also started forming the calf muscles and did not leave much to dish there. I will try to explain it more clearly when I am done, but it really is done by look and constantly checking its fit.

Here is the prototype that I am using to make my final paper form. I will cut out the final set Wednesday and start forming them.

[le Cavalier Invisible]

NICE!! hock: 8)

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Congratulations. It looks good for a first try! Thought he curve is not that clear on this one. I'm eager to see the other cutout and how it will actually curve. The calf looks great,a profile view available?
It looks as if the knee could be dished a bit higher? I check this in comparison to your calf,but does it actually fit your knee as it is in this sample?
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

Giannis,

The curve is there although it is hard to see in that shot. Follow the shadow and you can see it more clearly. There will be much more dramatic curve on the final greeves though. That one was cutout with both sides mirrored to each other instead of the more skewed outline shown on my final run.

The knee is being dished higher on the final. I just didn't see a point in correcting it on the throw away. I am using that one to experiment on methods before I do anything to my set. Good eye though!

Here are the two final greeves cut out, marked out with guidelines for hammering, ready to be filed and shaped. I will start hammering tomorrow.