How hoplites carried their spears

[Cipher]

As far as I know, the general consensus is that hoplites generally fought with their spears overhanded.
Does this mean that they carried their spears with butt end sticking upwards during march?
I can't see how else they could have hold the spear overhand without being extremely uncomfortable.

[ouragos]

This seems to be a perenial discussion against which there are a number of theories. As a reenactor I have tried many different approaches to this BUT the answer might be more apparent than would be thought.

To begin with - we are talking 'close quarter' phalanx use.

The confusion in your assumption seems to be that the spear would be held, gripped firmly as you would grip an axe, with the thumb and first finger locked together facing towards the butt spike. Giving you the only logical option of recovery where the butt spike is up and the point down.

This fails on a couple of levels, not least that the sheer length of the spear would mean that you either have to carry it at a 45 degree angle at best or you would simply ground the point if you tried to hold it vertically.

It is also very difficult to carry something vertically using that grip for any length of time.

Our old friend Paul Allen seemed convinced that they used the same grip, only with the thumb towards the point. This, too, is completely unworkable and puts such a constant strain on the wrist in action that would render the combatant ineffective after a short while. It also has an impact upon the way the spear can be used and its versitility. Something we demonstrated to him on numerous occasions, not only in practice but with many contemporary vase illustrations of the grip. Paul, being Paul of course... and all who knew him will understand why I say this, remained convinced he had the solution and was immune to any counter argument. I think he also liked the way it looked!!

I digress with happy memories... now, once equipped, one of the frustrations of hoplite equipment is that every element of you is occupied. So the only hand available to manipulate the spear is the right hand. If you want to do anything other than move or fight (scratch your nose for example) you have to put something down. So the ability to simply ground the spear, do the task and recover the spear is essential. Thus it has to have the ability to be held vertically and the stronger of the points, the sarouter, needs to be downwards. I would be amazed if a properly constructed spear would hold itself upright (and stable) with the light iron head grounded fo any period of time. (Sorry, we do 5th C bc).

To move on to the point I am trying to make, I have many illustrations in my own collection but not electronically and a very quick look at google has not found anything but I could provide plenty of evidence for this if required.

The solution. Whilst you can 'grip like you would a hammer', you also have a very flexible hand. The way to hold the spear for most uses, therefore, is to stand with the spear grounded (vertically) at your side. Then to slide your hand down the shaft with your forefinger outstretched, pointing towards the floor. This stretches out your grip. Once at the point of balance (this should be accomplished by bending your knees slightly to reach down to the right place so that, when recovering, you are holding at the point of balance and the butt spike is clear of the ground) grip and draw up the spear. It should now sit comfortably at your side and your grip will give a much better balance when maneuvering it.

At this position it is easy to carry when moving and will not impede a close formation.

To raise it to the fighting position, it only takes a minimal amount of practice to be able to rotate your wrist and bring the butt backwards and the point forwards without waving your arm around. Rotating all anticlockwise. We get people to practice this by pushng their elbow into their waist and usng it as a pivot until the butt point is up and they lift their arm into position. (Phalanx formation is another area of consideration here, but that is another discussion.)

This allows you to bring the spear up and down in relatively close formation - and that, too, is a consideration in reconstructing how this was done.

Thus, once in fighting position your forefinger is along the underside of the shaft, pointing towards the butt spike. Your spear rests in the palm of your hand, your hand is stretched to get maximum surface contact (and control) with the spear shaft and you can fight comfortably with the spear above the shield wall within the spectrum of contact areas.

Yes you can close your grip if needed, but to rotate your spear back down you will need to stretch it out your hand again.

As I mentioned, there are many clear illustrations of this grip.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Andy,you could just show this video where you also participate i think :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiZ4Y4CG ... re=related
Good points. This movement alone is a clue about the order of actions a hoplite phalanx did before entering to battle. The hoplites must have had considerable space between each other. Every movement must have been done in open order,because in close order you can do nothing. It still remains a mystery though how a rear ranker came forward and elevated his spear from vertical to horizontal,when the man in front of him died and he took his place.
Khairete
Giannis

[ouragos]

Sounds like me shouting the orders....!

On the bringing of the spear to bear, it is not too likely that more than three ranks would have brought their spears to horizontal before engagement (practicalities seem to suggest this), and the basic premise of fighting is agressive pushing, so as a person in front of you went down in the fight, there would be likely no, ordered, process of stepping into their place.

As a consequence, and taking into account the perceived length and intensity of fighting, I would be surprised if there was any basis of formally stepping forward and then bringing the spear to bare 'within the mele'.

Outside of the clash it is a different matter and would not be particularly difficult.

At such close quarters the long spear would be a disadvantage anyway for someone new closing in from within the phalanx itself. Even if you could bring it to bare. The push of the shield might suffice, simply letting go of a vertical spear and drawing a sword might be a better option. (In such a close push the spear would pretty much stay in position once you have let go!)

By that stage of the fight though, I would suspect that it is more a case of reacting to circumstance than anything else.

[Sean Manning]

As far as I know, the general consensus is that hoplites generally fought with their spears overhanded.
Does this mean that they carried their spears with butt end sticking upwards during march?
I can't see how else they could have hold the spear overhand without being extremely uncomfortable.

Do you mean march on the battlefield, or march from camp to camp? Hoplites normally marched without most of their arms on, so probably carried their spears point upwards if they carried them at all. In battle, I expect that the first three ranks (who might actually fight) used the point-under-fist grip, and the rest used the point-over-fist grip.

Xenophon has some interesting and troublesome quotes on this in the Anabasis.

[hoplite14gr]

For reconstructing phalanx we use the the same way to carry and position our spears as in the video. We only execute synaspismos differently.

For parade we use the 45 degree forward angle based on Vix Crater.
We execute honorary salute by bringing it verticaly an put our shiled on-guard. Please see our photos in the "show your Greek Warrior impression thread.

For long distance march we carry it as in the video with the spear resting on the shoulder-similar to napolenic period musket carrying.
Its easier that way.

Hope I helped, kind regards.

[Cipher]

Thanks for the quick answers
I didn't expect to get such a detailed answers in such a short time!
That video showed what I was wondering about perfectly.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

For long marches there is evidence(and i found it indeed very comfortable with my spear) that they carried them resting in the shoulder,holding with the right hand(some times even with one finger) just the point of the sauroter.
Khaire
Giannis

[Sean Manning]

That's cool Gianis. I didn't know that detail, although Stefanos has told me about some of his other experiences.

[PMBardunias]

I'd echo Andy. Much of the debate that used to focus on changing the grip in combat stemmed from the mistaken belief that hoplites charged with an underhand grip- al la medieval knight. They surely did not do this and discarding the notion eliminates most of the problem, since they could carry it however they wished and change grip at leisure prior to charging.

In a nod to Paul Allen, the high underhand grip would be a natural for those men behind the 2 or 3 ranks whose spears are sauroter down, but since their spears are essentially grounded, the grip change Andy descibes would not be difficult. In the tight-packed ranks at this point, your spear is unlikely to simply fall to the ground in any case if you fumble.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Sean,if you see in the "Show you greek impression" thread,the point of balance of the hoplite spear is usually relatively low. In order to have your spear resting comfortably,the point of balance has to be on your shoulder. To achieve this,the sauroter has to be pulled high,so you have to actually hold the sauroter or the shaft near the sauroter to hod your spear comfortably.
I didn't take any pics of me because I was indoors and didn't have space,but here you are

There is a better one,the one shoing the finger golded sauroter in the Osprey book The Greek Hoplite,p.58
I have to say it is probable that few times there was need for the rear rankers to fight,if we judge from the percentage of the winners' dead and from the fact that most people died after the phalanx had colapsed.
Khairete
Giannis

[ouragos]

We often carry ours by holding the point of the sarouter and having the point of balance at the shoulder when we have the space (and crowd safety) to do it. As Giannis says, the point of balance should be quite low on the spear so it is a natural thing to do. It is also less strain in the carrying.

[PMBardunias]

We often carry ours by holding the point of the sarouter and having the point of balance at the shoulder

I had not considered that before. If the relief above and others are accurate depictions, this puts the balance point even further back than I thought- less than a quarter of the spear's length. This could make the spear faster to pivot- resistance behind the grip- and be safer for the men behind, but it would also make it easier to bring up into position in crowded conditions.

With the same grip described above, though finger and thumb encirclinig the shaft, simply lift the spear straight up until your arm is extended vertically over your head and the sauroter clears your shoulder. By this I mean drag your hand up your right side belly and chest. The let it fall forward. I'm playing with a stick right now and I can do this in a space the width of my own shoulders and aspis. If this works, and please try it, then the rear ranks can easily bring the spear to overhand even in a crowd.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul,the point of balance is indeed very low. But don't be mislead. The point of balance can be on the shoulder,but it actually rests better when the point of balance is over your shoulder. Your arm has some weight and adds to the sauroters weight as it hungs. So,wes the grip is very low but usually further towards the tip than where the shoulder touches the shaft.
Also,you may find a way to change grip(I don't have my spear here to test for myself) but don't forget you don't want to do anything risky with the possibility of losing your weapon and harming your fellows. I still think they couldn't change frip unless they had a lot of space.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Also,you may find a way to change grip(I don't have my spear here to test for myself) but don't forget you don't want to do anything risky with the possibility of losing your weapon and harming your fellows. I still think they couldn't change frip unless they had a lot of space.

I diagrammed the method below. Try it, its quite secure, your index finger, middle finger, and thumb always grip the shaft, and takes almost no space.