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spartan army at Mantinea 418 BC
#16
Most ancient sources say homioi and perioikoi in the army composition but not who where and doing what.
Lefktra was aspecial case for both adversaries.

Each enomotia could deploy in a wider front with perioikoi behind the homioi and with seasoned homioi veterans as ouragoi to keep the line.

Kind regards
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#17
Quote:Oh come on! Don't start such a debate! Remember,one of the greatest wars in history started with those same arguements! It lasted 27 years

Indeed. Far be it for anyone to invoke Spartan behaviour in this regard having “inheritedâ€
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#18
Thats an interesting theorie of Paralus. 3000 homoioi still was a considerable force.

It is a pity that the book of Lazanby about the Spartan Army is impossible to get. Osprey's book of the Spartan Army is not very detailed.
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#19
Quote:3000 homoioi still was a considerable force.

Indeed. In fact, it will be the largest that Sparta had put into the field in some considerable time. One needs to go back to Plataea for such numbers. Even at Tanagara in 458/7 Thucydides only puts the homoioi at 1,500. Kleomenes, if Herodotus is being specific with his term "Spartiate", took in excess of 2,000 homoioi to settle Spartan grievances with Argos sometime after his Athens foray in 506.

A figure of some 3,000 odd homoioi at Mantiniea, representing five sixths of their total, would put that total at some 3,600. Given the very parlous numbers by the time of Leuctra, that seems quite realistic.

All of which serves to indicate just how very serious this confrontation was. Sparta had spent long years entrenching its control of its frontiers - the wars against Argos for control of the Thyreatis are a stark example. Just as necessary were its alliances in Arkadia. This was the area through which it could be invaded and through which it would march its armies to the north. As well, many a perioikic settlement was just to the south of this area. Sparta employed its tried and true "divide and rule" strategy here at all times and rarely allowed the development of large cities. One needs only to cast an eye back to Kleomenes' end after having attempted to raise Arkadia against the Spartans.

By 418 League dissafection with Sparta and inspired diplomacy by the chameleon Alkibiades had raised the insufferable and hugely dangerous spectre of war - against Sparta - on its northern doorstep. Hence only the old and the young were back in defence of the city of Sparta. Sparta would live or die on the field at Mantinea.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#20
The fact that perioikoi were always subject to the Spartans(being free but not having their own city) doesn't mean that they fought among the homoioi. It does mean however that their number can be counted with the Spartan numbers. The fact that thet always followed the Spartans and never could make a decision on themselves makes them literally Spartan forces. But it still is more logical that they fought in a separate phalanx,with their own bonds among the hoplites,as we're told they were taken by region. The Spartans even chosent by lot,they were trained to fight as a whole,and i'm sure,adding some strangers among the ranks was not of any help. Stephanos's theory has a base,but again,why not have them on their left flank,them fighting in the honorary right?
As for the word "Lochos" used instead of "Mora", perhaps it was an outdated account as indeed in the past the Spartans army was consisted of five big lochoi.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#21
So if the 3600 or so Spartans on the battlefield of Mantinea were all of the Spartiate class, where were the periokoi ? On the left flank a seperate number of 600 sciritai were than the only unit of periokio forces ?

The total number of hoplites on Spartan side were estimated at 9000. Of which were 3000 Arcadians (allies an mercenaries ?). 3600 Spartiates, 600 Periokoi sciritai and about 2000 Helots fighting as hoplites (veterans of Brasidas and Neodanomeis). correct me if am wrong.

A few years later Xenophon puts the Spartan army and 6 morai of almost 600 hoplites each. This is almost as much as the number given in 418 BC.
The Sciritai (600) were converted to light armed skirmishers, fighting alongside the cavalry which also were about 600 in total. Unfortunatly the quality of the Spartan cavalry was very poor. At Leuktra thy were hacked to pieces bij the Theban cavalry.
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#22
Quote:As if the Spartans were above this practice?

Luckily for the Athenians, they did not destroy Athens as Melos had been sacked and their Theban allies suggested.

The common perception of Athens=good, Sparta=evil becomes much more level or even tilts the other way if you know the history of this war. Even a cursory glance should put to rest the now popular notion that democracies are inherently peaceful.

[quote]Indeed. Far be it for anyone to invoke Spartan behaviour in this regard having “inheritedâ€
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#23
Hey Paul,this will lead nowhere. Or if you think it will,here is not the appropriate thread I think. The whole notion that in war someone has to be good and someone bad is wrong. Hollywood's notion in fact,and propaganda above all. So the good study of the war is essentian,but not to find who's the good,who's the bad and who's the ugly.
Marcvs75 (who by the way has to right his real name) has made a good point. Where are the rest of Perioikoi in Mantineia? Could it be that only 600 Perioikoi fought in Mantineia? Could it be that the Perioikoi stayed home to guard the Helots and defend their homes in case the battle was lost? Of course some will say that they were among the homioi and were counted all together Big Grin
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#24
Quote:Hey Paul,this will lead nowhere

Dropped

Quote:Marcvs75 (who by the way has to right his real name) has made a good point. Where are the rest of Perioikoi in Mantineia? Could it be that only 600 Perioikoi fought in Mantineia? Could it be that the Perioikoi stayed home to guard the Helots and defend their homes in case the battle was lost? Of course some will say that they were among the homioi and were counted all together

This is interesting, because I cannot imagine the Spartans intentionally leaving the Periokoi out. They would want them on the battlefield, invested in the outcome and not free to make trouble should they be bought off into revolt.

If they were not there it brings up the possibility that they "sat it out" waiting to see who emerged victorius.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#25
This is a possiblity. What do we know about the relationship between Perioikoi and Helots? Probably they rarely came in contact,but again...And how would a perioikos present himself to a foreigner? As Laconian,or perhaps with his village's name? Sure not as Sparta's servant because he was not. They were free men. At least they were considered freem by the other Greeks and this is enough.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#26
Maybe the Periokoi in northern Laconia were formed in a mora and nicknamed the Sciritai. Off course Skiritis is the land named in northern Laconia. The periokoi in the south and east of Laconia maybe were to guard the helots and the Laconian coast from Athenian naval attacks. I read somewhere that many Periokoi villages were situated at the coast. So the treath of surprise attacts from the Athenian navy could have drawn a lot of periokoi forces from the main army.
This is my guess but is seems logical to mee.
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#27
Mountanous Skiritis was hard to subjugate so smart Doreans strike a deal to offer citizenship. Therefore those who took the obligations too and followed the "agogi" took "homioi" status. They appear sporting the white hawk on a black background on their shields in archaic pottery. Some of them fought in loose order and the later specialized as raiders and scouts.

Lakoo - Yllakoo - scream like a hawk
Lakonia - land of the Hawks

Same trick was used with the coastal Messinians

Kind regards
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#28
Stefanos, where did you get your information about the spartan army ?
I read Osprey's "the Spartan army" and Paul Cartledge "the Spartans". Further the magnificent "Greece and Rome at war" of Peter Connolly and John Warry " Warfare in the classical world".
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#29
Your sources pioneered the way.
Me and Giorgos Iliopoulos simply put in the ancient sources adding to Herodotus, Xenophon, Pauasnias, Plutarch along with references form Souda and Hysichios lexikon, The Anthology of Stovaios, Polyaenos and the detailed analysis of Thirlwall. Throw in a list of inscriptions and pottery from obscure little museums (not only in Laconia). Add to the mix Muller Fragmenta Historium Grecorum.

The explanation for the meaning of Lakonia comes from Hoffmann: Etymologisher Worterbuch des Griechishen and G Curtius Homerisher Reallexikon.

We follow the verse related to the SAS:
"we are the pilgrims Master, we shall always go a little further"

Kind regards
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#30
Quote:Luckily for the Athenians, they did not destroy Athens as Melos had been sacked and their Theban allies suggested..

The romantic notion that Athens was allowed survival by Sparta largely due to its previous service to Greece is about as cogent as Agesilaos' panhellennic crusade to liberate Asia. The rising power of Boeotia would appear to have much more to recommend it. It is no coincidence that Thebes was disaffected from Sparta - as in very short order would be Megara and Corinth - at this time and , in fact, "disobedient". Athens, as a Spartan ally, would form the check. Their services in the reduction of Elis over 402-400 are an indicator.

Quote:You are forgetting that they were quite free while Agiselaos romped through Anatolia, when the Athenians sold them out not for ships to save the very existance of their polis, but for some share of 10,000 darics.

Their polis was, at the time, quite secure. Agesilaos replaced two dilatory Spartan commanders who had waved the flag for some three yaers. He achieved, on the whole, remarkably little when placed in contrast with Xenophon's admiring description of his aims. Indeed, the far less biased Oxyrinchus historian (and Diodorus) note that he decided a peace with Tissaphernes' replacement Tithraustes was in order.

Agesilaos' campaign, those of Thibron and Derkylidas before it and the lukewarm tacit support of Cyrus the Younger are all sops to Spartan guilt. When reality presented itself, the hard heads at Sparta had no worries about the resale of the Asia minor Greeks (and some islanders) to the King. On several occasions.

The flreet under Pharnabazus - and Konon - was a Persian fleeet and it served Persian interests. Well as it turned out. Persian gold had, in the end, little to do with the Corinthian War; this was a certainty before any money arrived as the Oxyrinchus historian - again with no Spartan sympathies to protect - makes clear.

As suggested though, perhaps this might make another thread?
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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