spartan army at Mantinea 418 BC

[Paralus]

As mentioned Xenophon discribes the army in 6 morai of 4 lochoi of 144 men each. So 6 morai should be correct. Only the strenght of the moria depended on the mission

The Peloponesians had no horsebreeding culture ...

See my short note above with respect to Xenophn's number of lochoi. The minor emendation of the transmitted text to read two makes eminent common sense and fits with what else we know of the army of Mantinea and onwards. With homoioi an ever diminishing species it makes little sense to expand the number of lochoi.

The Spartans most certainly had a horsebreeding culture: the record at Olympia speaks to it. The king's guard, the hippies also harks back to horse breeding. That they made little use of cavalry is another thing though.

[PMBardunias]

The Spartans most certainly had a horsebreeding culture: the record at Olympia speaks to it. The king's guard, the hippies also harks back to horse breeding.

To add to this you might look at Greek names. Phillipos, Hippomedon, Xanthippos, Hippocrates, Hippolytos, Hippistratus, Kratippos, Xenippos, and others. There is a suprisinigly high incidence of horse oriented names if the horse were not important to them.

[Paralus]

The reorganization of the army must have taken place after 464 bc,after the earthquacke. Could it be that the Athenian writers are using the old system,that they knew for centuries,instead of the modern terms?

That first is the general assumption. It is also the general explanation for the fall in homoioi numbers down to the 420s. Two generations, all other things being equal, will have worked that through I might’ve thought. All things, though, were far from equal.

The material quoted from Thucydides firmly indicates the brigading of perioikoi within the morae by 425 at the absolute latest – most likely earlier. The only debate is whether they were formed into their own enomotia – as Paullus argues – or were formed up with the homoioi in some fashion. The evidence does not exist to conclusively resolve that.

What is conclusive is the haste with which Sparta went about regaining her imprisoned 120 or so homoioi. A haste which not only entailed peace proposals – unilateral peace proposals without any discussion with the League members – but proposals which will have abrogated their stated purpose for the war in the first place. Dark double-dealings indeed.

It is from now onwards that terms such as Neodamodeis and ‘Brasideioi’ enter the sources. These ‘semi-freed’ helots formed an ever greater part of the ‘Lakedaemonians’ in any Spartan army (there were some 3,000 Neodamodeis operting in Asia Minor in the early years of the fourth century). Spartan oliganthropy, a deadly internal cancer, was well on the way to destroying its host.

I do not think the Athenian writers are using the old system of the obae. They are – or Thucydides is – using the moral system and, in doing so, confusing it. Herodotus, writing sometime near to 440 uses the term lochoi (one of which he terms the “Pitanateâ€

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus wrote:

The only debate is whether they were formed into their own enomotia – as Paullus argues – or were formed up with the homoioi in some fashion.

...I think a misunderstanding has arisen here......I was not suggesting that the Homioi and Perioikoi were formed into separate enomotia at all, merely that I agreed with Toynbee and others that it is more likely that an enomotia from each unit was chosen by lot to form the garrison, rather than individual soldiers being chosen by lot.I believe the evidence of the captured numbers to be very strong evidence indeed that the Homioi and Perioikoi were already integrated within the enomotia by the time of Sphacteria (425 BC)
I also have a suspicion that it is far too easy to blame the earthquake for the decline in Homioi numbers, when the truth may well be, as in so many cases, far more complex. I also suspect the decline will have been exaggerated somewhat, but the subject of"Spartan Manpower" is perhaps better left to another thread

[Paralus]

Paralus wrote:

The only debate is whether they were formed into their own enomotia – as Paullus argues – or were formed up with the homoioi in some fashion.

...I think a misunderstanding has arisen here......

Indeed it has and it is my error of reading. Apologies.

I also have a suspicion that it is far too easy to blame the earthquake for the decline in Homioi numbers, when the truth may well be, as in so many cases, far more complex. I also suspect the decline will have been exaggerated somewhat, but the subject of"Spartan Manpower" is perhaps better left to another thread.

The truth is indeed far more complex. As I say, two generations should have worked that through one would imagine. The fact that 1,500 ‘Lakedaemonians’ could be marched into central Greece some six or so years after this “cataclysmicâ€

[PMBardunias]

I believe the evidence of the captured numbers to be very strong evidence indeed that the Homioi and Perioikoi were already integrated within the enomotia by the time of Sphacteria (425 BC)

What I think speaks against this integration is the way "elite" units of other cities were formed. The Argive 1000 is a single unit, not a front and rear of the general levy. The Theban sacred band seems to be as well. There would seem to be an advantage to keeping the best trained hoplites in a single mass rather than sprinkling them along the front of a lesser body of men.

Not simply the double dealing to secure their release but the treatment of these individuals (as opposed to the survivors of Thermopylae) after their return.

I'm sure that if there had been hundreds of survivors of Thermopylae, the laws would have slept for a day as well.

[Paralus]

What I think speaks against this integration is the way "elite" units of other cities were formed. The Argive 1000 is a single unit, not a front and rear of the general levy. The Theban sacred band seems to be as well.

Whilst that is essentially true there is a distinct difference: the Argives are attested as fielding another 5,000 or so in addition to the “state trainedâ€

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:-

What I think speaks against this integration is the way "elite" units of other cities were formed. The Argive 1000 is a single unit, not a front and rear of the general levy. The Theban sacred band seems to be as well.

.....it was not always so in the case of the Thebans at least, if Plutarch is to be believed. In his Life of Pelopidas(XIX,3) he relates how originally Gorgidas had distributed the Sacred Band among the front ranks of the whole phalanx, and that it was under Peolopidas that they were first brought together.......

[PMBardunias]

[quote]Whilst that is essentially true there is a distinct difference: the Argives are attested as fielding another 5,000 or so in addition to the “state trainedâ€

[PMBardunias]

.....it was not always so in the case of the Thebans at least, if Plutarch is to be believed. In his Life of Pelopidas(XIX,3) he relates how originally Gorgidas had distributed the Sacred Band among the front ranks of the whole phalanx, and that it was under Peolopidas that they were first brought together.......

At which point they go from being an honorary unit to a battle winning weapon.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

As a matter of fact,if you want to protect your precious few citizens,it's better to place them all together in a considerable depth,rather than spread them all,or even half of them,in the front line,that would ensure their death even in a victorious battle. But again this is speculative. Another clue is that the Sacred Band and the rest Theban army were deployed to an extraordinary depth only for some meters in the far right Spartan wing. Was this because the few homioi held their honorary place there?
So what about Sphacteria? There we don't have a real army,rather a pitiful garrison. The number of the homioioi there was equal to 6 school classes! If you think of this its ridiculous that they would have to hold the one wing. After all, in Sphacteria it's almost impossible to give a real battle between phalanxes.
The Spartans were not considering themselves superior to other people because of their ancestry or something. They just thought that their constitution was better and most of all,they were the ultimate warriors. So what kept them distinctive against any helots or perioikoi was was their training. If you place "foreigners" inside the base of their system,the enomotia, you ruin the whole concept. And you make an equal army of non homioi, with the right to claim all the victories that the spartan army had achieved. It may was possible that when needed the homioi could beploy in the first and last rank. It isn't necessary that this was the rule,nor that the perioikoi were part of the enomotia.
After all,the Spartan army was famous for its coordination,and in the othismos this is exactly what you need to win. If you place the proffecionals only in few ranks in all the lenght of the line,you destroy that coordination as well.
In Sphacteria we see that dofferent enomotiai(or men in the the number of the enomotia) were dispatched in order to guard different spots of the island. It is logical to assume that Spartans were put inside these groups in order to add confidence and assure that the perioikoi would not try to escape. We often see Sparta doing this,sending only commanders in otherwise foreighn armies,to ensure everything would be as planned.
Khairete
Giannis

[Marcvs75]

I think another problem in estimating the manpower is what the historians mean by the term Spartiate (all male member of 30 years and older which profided a tribute for the mess).
In the forth sentury manny full blood Spartans lost their citizenship due too economic reasons. Thy could not profite the tribute for the messes. Another group, Methoks, which were not full blood Spartans, but were sponsered by important/influancial Spartiates. These Spartans were raised in the Agoge and could make quite a career (in the army (Lysander, Gylippus).
I thonk these two groups were not counted as Spartiates ?

[hoplite14gr]

Probally at first a Mothax would be little considered but if you a dependable comraid who stands his ground in a fight you dont exime his origins very much.
Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Two questions:

Where are the Hypomeiones in the scheme above?

What do you think this quote from Isocrates is saying about how the perioic element was integrated with the Spartiates?

"[180] And, having despoiled them of all the rights which free men ought to share, they imposed upon them the greatest part in all dangers. For in the campaigns which were conducted by their kings they not only ranged them man for man side by side with themselves, but some they stationed in the first line, and whenever need arose to dispatch a relief-force anywhere and they themselves were afraid of the hardships or the dangers or the length of time involved, they sent them forth to take the brunt of the danger from all the rest. "

and in greek:

"[180] hapantôn d' aposterêsantas autous hôn prosêkei metechein tous eleutherous, tous pleistous epitheinai tôn kindunôn autois: en te gar tais strateiais, hais hêgeitai basileus, kat' andra sumparatattesthai sphisin autois, enious de kai tês prôtês tattein, ean te pou deêsan autous ekpempsai boêtheian phobêthôsin ê tous ponous ê tous kindunous ê to plêthos tou chronou, toutous apostellein prokinduneusontas tôn allôn. "

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I must confess this is very clear about the fact that the perioikoi were mixed with the homioi in the phalanx. However it seems to indicate that the perioikoi were indeed deploying in a way that they could for rows. And these some times could have been in the first rows. So i think the perioikoi had their own units,that could be placed either between or in front of the homioi. Now it is easy if the periokoi were placed in the first two ranks,for example,to have the normal enomotiae of homioi deployed behind them in a depth of 6 or 4 men. But could they actually have perioikoi in two or three ranks between the front and rear spartan ranks.
And a question: Why is he speaking of this only when a king leads the army?
Khairete
Giannis