Full coverage Manica

[le Cavalier Invisible]

Up to which era can they actually be used? :?

Greetz

[Caballo]

Good question, Manuel. Manicae were certainly in use in the 1st and 2nd centuries, and are depicted on the Notitia Dignitatum as well, with literary references in Ammianus (4th century).

Manicae have also been found in Romania, Carlisle, and Newstead- so fairly widespread throughout the Empire.

So- my best guess would be that manicae were used up to the end of the 4th century.

But they do not appear to have been standard issue, so my recomnmendation would be that a complete unit of manica-clad miles would probably not be accurate. (Unless you are putting together a troop of cataphracti........ )

Cheers

Caballo

[John Conyard]

I recently bought one of these from Armamentaria in copper alloy, for my 4th century cavalry impression. bending the plates around the arm to give the perfect fit stooped the manic from slipping down my arm. I added some extra D rings using two to secure it above the wrist, and four to secure it around the bicep. The manica does not slip around my arm. I found I had to just line the thumb and hand covering with thin goat skin to stop the plates scratching the rear of the hand. I didn't use a glove. These plates really just cover the rear of the hand, not the fingers, so they don't interfear with a bow string. The manica doesn't restrict arm movement.

Against another horseman or against missiles it gives me an advantage. But when raising my arm to strike downwards it doesn't present such good coverage. I wear a shield on my left arm so resisted buying two versions of the manica. So far.

It looks pretty and I'll see how it works this season.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I plan on using the glove method myself, to see if that will make gripping the gladius less difficult. Andy was trying out this method, but I have yet to hear more from him.

[John Conyard]

Does a great big pede have trouble gripping his weapon?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

A what? You've lost me mate? hock:

The thumb plates are quite close to the hand plates, so I am concerned these will interfer with grippong the gladius, unless secured to a glove , securely. I think that is the best way to solve the problem.

[John Conyard]

A pede is a legionary.

The plates of 15th century gauntlets can interfear with the grip on a sword. Indeed some examples have deliberate cut outs to better accommodate a sword handle.

The plates on the manica would make gripping the handle of a sword difficult. But my perception was that the number of plates and their arrangement made it seem that their merely covered the back of the hand, not the digits.

Your comments reminded me of those of a military commission considering the grip of the French Cuirassier sword during the Napoleonic wars. Recruits needed to be a fine tall physical specimens to join the corp. There were complaints about the design of the sword grip. After much consideration the commission decided that the sword should not slip in the hands of a 6' tall Frenchman.

Nor should your gladius slip in the hands of a pede!

[Barius Alexander]

bending the plates around the arm to give the perfect fit stooped the manic from slipping down my arm.

How much coverage do you get? Full coverage or more like 3/4?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

A pede is a legionary.

The plates of 15th century gauntlets can interfear with the grip on a sword. Indeed some examples have deliberate cut outs to better accommodate a sword handle.

The plates on the manica would make gripping the handle of a sword difficult. But my perception was that the number of plates and their arrangement made it seem that their merely covered the back of the hand, not the digits.

Your comments reminded me of those of a military commission considering the grip of the French Cuirassier sword during the Napoleonic wars. Recruits needed to be a fine tall physical specimens to join the corp. There were complaints about the design of the sword grip. After much consideration the commission decided that the sword should not slip in the hands of a 6' tall Frenchman.

Nor should your gladius slip in the hands of a pede!

Won't slip in my hand, it is the getting it into my hand that concerns me! :wink:

Mine has a separate set of plates for the thumb, so I will not know for sure until I get it lined and wearable!

(that pede sounded awfully close to a modern insult...had me pondering there hock: :lol: )

[John Conyard]

I get about 60% coverage. It's tempting to do them for the legs and feet as well.

I'm not up on modern insults, or old ones come to that!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:lol:

Yes, the idea of full catephract type setup in a pleasing idea.....

[Barius Alexander]

I get about 60% coverage. It's tempting to do them for the legs and feet as well.

Thanks.

What thickness of metal(gauge) do you guys use?

Matt Lukes recommended a rather thin plating, but his point is a good one. Less weight and the manica's main purpose was cut resistance, not impact resistance.

[John Conyard]

I fear I just got one from Adrian Wink, off the shelf. I thought I could use it as a guide to made a version. Adrian offers a good service.

I agree with Matt Luke. The thinness also allows the plates to be easily bent to shape. I had read these things easily slip around and down the arm. But shaping it seems to help hold it in place. It looks pretty enough and the cheap price means soon other cavalry men will be sporting them!

John

[Caballo]

On rotation- I find that using leather lacing in a criss cross rather than 2/3 straps to hold it in place plus a liner (I've tried both wool and fleece and prefer fleece) stops the rotation. Essentially, the laces are directly in contact with the skin of the arm and provide enough grip to stop it twirling round.

I'm not a big believer in the strap method as it there were no small strap buckles found with the Carlisle manicae.

It is easier and faster for a modern person to put on and off with straps, but I find that wriggling the arm in and then adjusting the laces works fine.

Finally, there are a number of depictions of gladiator manicae with a "fringe" dangling down from the manica- and the only explanation I can come up with is lacing.

Crispus suggested that the laces were individually tied rather than criss crosss- and this is probably a good suggestion, but one that I haven't experimented with yet.

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers

Caballo

[John Conyard]

Totally concur. I did a criss cross on the bicep, with just a single tie around the wrist. The only lining I added was a little to the plates on the rear of the hand/thumb.

To be honest I didn't appreciate just how simple this style of armour is manufacture. Everytime I walk into the equipment room I find myself bending copper alloy strips around my legs and feet. There seems no end to the possibilities and the Dura graffiti seems less of an oddity.