Glueing a Linothorax

[ouragos]

The HA would not accept a leather cuirass, either in the style of a muscled cuirass or as a linothorax. There are many debates over what is and what is not correct and they have had to make decisions. No leather armour is one of them. Both glued and non-glued linen would be accepted though...provided the quality was OK of course!!!

If you are going to core your lino with leather, something in the region of 3mm would work PROVIDED you do not use a stiff hide. You need a leather core that is supple or else it will change the flexibility of the finished construct.

Also - as I think I mentioned above, do not use a hide that has a gloss coat - it will seperate from the linen after a bit of use as the glue will not adhere properly. If that is what you have, distress it first with a power sander.

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Thanks, Ouragos, for the answer. I had been wondering what was the thickness you used for the core having read earlier threads. I realize the HA doesn't approve leather by itself. Do you mind if I ask how you attatch the linen outer layer to the leather? I understand it's glued but are the edges stitched into the leather core or made like a pillowcase. I've made a
linen cuirass a couple of years ago but am getting ready to make another, better one and gathering all the info I can. Thanks again.

[ouragos]

Not quite sure what you mean - just treat the leather as a layer of linen - but like the filling in a sandwich. So all layers are glued to each other.

Edging - well I tend to use leather strips, glued on (can't understand why, if they were glued.. stepping outside the larger debate of course re glue/not glue.. why the edges would not be the same.) You could use linen to edge with as well, and you could stitch the edges on. I have done that too - logic though seems to dictate that if glue was used, then the edges were probably glued as well and this type of build allows ease of repair and rebuild.

[Susanne]

If I ever got on with making my own linothorax I could have provided my own thoughts based on my own glueing experiences.

However, I have to admit that I like the leather core method, as I would get away with a fairly inexpensive linothorax; it would cut down my glueing needs and amount of linen needed.

[ouragos]

In real terms it is probably a bit cheaper makiing from all linen than a mix of linen and leather, but not much as the volume of glue goes up. The materials for a decent linothorax (linen, glue, leather, thread, fittings, paint) will probably be in the region of £100 / $200 per unit.

[Matthew Amt]

Actually, I only spent $45 on the linen for my linothorax, 15 yards at $3 per yard. A side of leather would run a good $60 or $70. So even if I made my cuirass with more layers, it would still be a lot cheaper to use only linen rather than linen over leather. If I wanted to get even cheaper, I'd just look for heavy cotton canvas, or even denim.

I got my linen from MJ Cahn,

http://www.wovenfabrics.com/

They don't necessarily list EVERYthing they have in stock, so it might be worth giving them a call, particularly since a project like this can easily use flawed or damaged fabric, or odd lots, ends of bolts, etc. Other potential sources:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/supplrs.html#fabric

Khairete,

Matthew

[Chris B]

1) How did you keep it from gluing to the layer it was drying on? Did you just glue it on cement and then pry it off the cement when it was done drying? I think I am going the glued route.

The cost of the fabric wasn't too bad. I just bought 15 yds of 100% linen from Joann Fabrics for about $100 on sale. That should get me 14-16 layers of linen total. I haven't decided on construction method yet, but I like to keep my supplies for one project out from my current one so that I can begin the next one without much lead time.

2) Also, if I decided to put some scale on it, what is the most accepted view among reenactors as far as coverage? Where on the armor is it more often than not seen? What thickness of scale? I am thinking like 22 gauge or something similiar. I have read some of the other LONGGGGG threads, but the information seems to be overwhelming and mostly conjecture. I just want to know what is the safest bet for scales if you wanted to go with the most widely accepted use of them.

3) How many layers of glued linen do any of you think could still be cut through with scissors or a razor? I am thinking about gluing a few layers together to get a rigid base and then cut the exact shape out of it. I am just not sure at what point it will become too difficult to cut. I am also thinking about waiting until 7/8 layers to cut the pteryges apart. Is this possible? If I use Giannis's pattern, each section will be 7/8 layers thick and then the upper and lower shell will be glued together to get the full 14-16 layers. I am thinking about cutting the pteryges apart just before gluing the two shells together.

4) Matt, you mention that you would find out if they freyed after use on your LARP site. Do your flaps frey over time or did the glue keep them together neatly?

[hoplite14gr]

As you have seen from the photos in "Greek impression" I own a tube yoke black linothorax. It has 15 layers og linen. The seemstress who made it stiched 5 layers + 5 layers + 5 layers. Every set of 5 was done in the machine. It is a heavy thing!

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hey,Chris,as far as I know no greek plates have been found from the archaic,classical or hellenistic era. So you have to estimate the thickness from roman scales which varied in thickness and sizes. But they were generally very thin. Good on you because it's hard to make so many plates. There is a thread in the reconstruction section or in the how-tos that show how to make massively plates very easily.
There is such variety in desigh that I really can't point you to a spesific one. You should probably cover the right hand side which was unprotected by the shield. Many had plates in the belly,others in all the front and perhaps not at all in the sides,some had in both sides and none in the front,some were all covered...Pteryges with or without plates.Perhaps you can draw what you have in mind about yours and post it here for comments. Better still,imitate closely a spesific one from a vase or wall painting.
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

Giannis,

This is a ROUGH design of what I have in mind. Don't expect any work on it until I finish my greaves completely though. I am making a 14-16 layer solid linen thorax in white. I plan on painting one black line across each bottom section of the pteryges.

Then I will paint a black line just at the top edge of the pteryges followed by a red wave like my aspis and crest box followed by another black line. I am going to trim each of the four panels with black linen to "frame" each main section. Then I will put 20 gauge (.032") bronze scales starting touching the last black line to about 2/3 up the height of the side panels all the way around the body.

Then I am going to get solid brass lion heads to use as the 5 fastening points. I will paint a sunburst over the area that the center one will attach on the front. Red bar at the top edge of the front panel next to the trim.

On the shoulder I will paint two scorpions to match my Boeotian shield design and put an orb on the back center section for the upper part. I may replace the scorpions with two rampant black pegasus. I a going to play with it a lot design wise. If you have seen my shields, I like the art the most so I will settle on something that "pops" to the eyes. I feel okay playing with it within greak symbols since there is SOOO much variety in the artistic representations. Here is a rough drawing.



PS: The metal got here today so it is back to greaves tomorrow night. Forth time will be a charm.......right? :roll:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Nice. Is this desighn made on scale? If it is,note that the pteryges are too long. The pteryges should be short enough as when you sit,the back pteryges shouldn't touch the chair or ground.In other words,you shouldn't be able to sit on your pteryges.
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

No. It is just a rough sketch. I didn't give any thought to scale. I am sitting here second guessing it though. I think I am going to replace the waves with a key pattern and replace the scorpions with something else.

I want to make a second aspis with a sunburst pattern in the center bowel. Then a key pattern on the rim with the same key pattern moving the opposite direction on the bottom of the bowel (maybe inverting colors). I am just thinking I probably don't want both my "Looks" to be the same city state or pattern. A bit boring don't you think?

I am getting a chalcidean helmet to go with the linothorax so I am thinking of just doing a second representation. I have seen purple. Was it used at all? I am thinking of using it as the bowel color behind the sunburst. Then I could use a little purple on the thorax. Just thinking out loud. Maybe purple, tan, and black for the aspis with the same colors on the linothorax....I feel like I am beating the same drum pattern. My Roman and Greek shields and colors are ALL red and black.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Purple. It could be used,yes. Royal...expensive...haven't seen it in classical wall paintings,but I don't know why it couldn't be used. As a colour for aspis? It may had been a little more rare...and more expensive! Some Macedonian shields may have had purple,as show on a fresco from Agios Athanasios. Also their linothorakes appear to have been completely purple painted. The question is,was it meant to represent purple when it was painted? The usual classical colours appear to have been white base with red,black,blue and pink patterns. This may not had been always the case.
Also,to tell the truth,I don't feel the need to have all the decoration of my armour in the same patterns. It doesn't appear in ancient art,and i don't think it was the case. Different armour pieces were made and decorated by different men. The uniformity i think is a modern "need". You know,we want to match our shoes with our hat. In the same way,i think the decoration of crest is irrelevant with the linothorax and the shield design. It's ok that you did it,but I think you don't have to feel so obliged to use same patterns and colours,and that all of them would have to do with heraldry. Heraldy was used in shields and we know this because there are ancient references to it. But even those are not always clear. But the rest of colours of chitons,crests and whatever were free to your taste.
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

Thanks. I am going to dwell on it some while I am doing the greaves. My wife is bugging me to make a sunburst Aspis. I really don't want to put the effort into an aspis just to paint a sunburst on it. It is just a little plain for my tastes, but I may do it to appease her. It is the only time she has asked me to make a shield that she would like to see. I want to do the running legs personally. I will probably lose this argument though. She puts up with me doing all these projects so I guess I should do it for her for once.

I know these aren't Greek, but my painting skills have been getting better and I really like pushing my limits. This is the last shield I made. Both the heater and mantling/crest/wreath match my 12th Century Knight persona. Point being that I would really like something even more dynamic next time I make a shield.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yeah,I think she deserves it!