Glueing a Linothorax

[Matthew Amt]

1) How did you keep it from gluing to the layer it was drying on? Did you just glue it on cement and then pry it off the cement when it was done drying?

Uh, not sure I'm following, here. I laid a sheet of plastic on the floor, I think, laid the first layer of linen on it, brushed on the glue (not too heavily), laid the second layer on, and repeated for a total of 3 or 4 layers. Then strapped it all around my form to dry. Putting the glue on the first layer is a little aggravating because the linen just wants to stick to the brush and wrinkle up and flip over and glue to itself and...

3) How many layers of glued linen do any of you think could still be cut through with scissors or a razor?

Phooo, don't really remember. Pretty sure I had the whole 15 layers together before cutting out the armholes, though, but I may have used a coping saw for that. But also pretty sure I used an Xacto knife on the pteruges, 7 or 8 layers each. Might have taken a couple passes to do each cut.

4) Matt, you mention that you would find out if they freyed after use on your LARP site. Do your flaps frey over time or did the glue keep them together neatly?

They are fraying some. In retrospect, it would have been better and probably more authentic to cut a narrow slot between each pair of flaps, and finish all the cut edges with linen tape, but... Eh, my linothorax really doesn't get all that much use, so it's not something I'm going to go and rebuild!

Khairete,

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

You'll find the cloth will stick to your brush less if you spray the fabric with a mist of water before you start, just enough to dampen it. That also will draw the glue into the fabric. Works for me when I glue cloth to shields, so it should work for this, too.

[ouragos]

It is far easier and more effective to apply the glue with a tile spreader, as you need the glue to absorb into the linen in order to ensure adhesion over time. It also starts to dry pretty quickly so this allows you to be much more 'prompt' in the build. If you do not do this then there is a strong possibility that elements of the layers will bubble / start to separate with wear.

The glue you use is important as well. It needs to be something with the property of stiffening and softening in relation to temperature - and thus have elasticity.

If you are just thinking 'glue', then the very best I have found is a Sanford product called Marvin Medium. A PVA, but cannot be beaten for this type of build in modern glue terms. Not that I have found anyway and I have made 20 or so linothorax.

Layers, well if you are building entirely from linen I would suggest that you build in two stages. Linen will move as it is pressed into place and so you need a stable surface to ensure a good finish. Build a 'core' first of 5/6 layers, re-apply your pattern and cut back to shape. It should be stable then for the top layers to be applied.

Build by doing alternate front-back layers (as in, keep turning it over). Wilth Marvin you would be able to build 'wet' - as in complete the whole body in one process.

DO NOT cut the pteregues until the end. You will find it impossible to manage 19-21 'feathers' and keep them straight and regular if you cut them first.

I would also suggest that you make the body thicker than the pteregues. If you are looking to 20+ layers (and be careful as it can get too thick), half that thickness for the pteregues would be plenty. Remember, there will be an inner layer of pteregues as well. Also, if you are scaling the outside, remember you have to drive all the stitching holes through!

Also - just make sure that the body length is to your natural waist - navel/belly button. Else you will find it diffcult to bend. Length of the pteregues, by illustrative evidence, is variable depending upon timeframe but a good guide is that your own 'dangly bits' would be just about visible....or not for us more regularly proportioned guys!

This gives you about a 10" drop from the waist.

[Chris B]

Matt,

I was assuming the glue soaked through the linen so the bottom layer would stick to the surface it was drying on. That is what I meant. As far as unravelling, I will buy enough double bias tape to trim all the pteryges too then. Thanks for the information.

1) What PVA glue did most the guys in the U.S. use? Marvin Medium seems to be a UK product. I was thinking of just using the gallon containers of plain PVA you find at Home Depot or Lowes. That's what I use on my shields and it has always worked great. I am not sure for cloth to cloth though.

2) Did anyone paint the entire linothorax white instead of just leaving the cloth unpainted?

Andy,

Thanks for the information. It will definately help. I am planning on using Giannis's pattern so the pteryges would be 8 layers and the whole thorax would be 16 layers built in two 8 layer bundles. I think I am going to lace the scales on at about 5 layers and then put the bottom 3 layers on after so it will be easier to sew and so that the stitches will not be visible from the inside.

[ouragos]

The glue will not soak through the linen unless you really overload it - but by the time you get to the outer layers you should have the technique.

Pteregues, well a better way is to build, cut and then add an extra, fold over layer that you wrap around like a bedsheet on a mattress - trimmed at the corners of course. Adds two layes effectively and leave all three exposed edges finished off.

Glue - experiment. My wife did the originial testing for us by attaching linen to linen to leather to leather to wood to wood to linen. Let them all dry out fully, cure for a few days and then spent a merry time ripping them all to bits. Marvin was the only one that resisted. One of its wonderful properties is that allows you to re-work and repair old builds as well as when it is teased to separate, it tends to do so without damage to the materials.

Am certain there will be others just as good, but there are a lot of rubbish PVA's a swell. If your experience with the one you usually use is good, just do a quick test with some crap to reassure yourself first?

DON'T paint the inside - by using pva and paint you will seal yourself in and it can get a bit moist in hot weather. Don't ask why, but it is more bearable if the inside is not painted. It is also nicer on the skin!

You might find that building in two halves creates a weak centre and it will be liable to separate in places after a while with use. Particularly as the stitching will create an uneven surface. The theory is good, but the practice could present you with a challenge. A more robust finish will be achieved with a complete, wet on wet, build. Binds better.

Also, if there is damage to the scales and they pull loose, you are creating a major repair task. If this is an issue?

If seeing the stitches is a problem for you, why not just add one final, inner layer of linen once it is scalled?

Paint - well the BEST finish, and this is not very authentic, can be achieved with matt enamel paint. Not the cheapest approach but it is good for both finish and durability. Be aware, linen sucks in paint like a sweating football player drinks.... Linen also 'lifts' when painted and thus you need to get enough on to flatten it down (which can mean you have to smooth it off whilst wet) and ensure you can add a pattern later without it spreading - but I guess you know that if you are already painting linen covered shields.

[ouragos]

Cheapest good linothorax linen source is IKEA if you have access to one. Aina I think they call it. It has been out of stock everwhere for the last 6 months but they started re-stocking this month. €6 per metre max. One linothorax will take between 6 and 10 metres, depending how you want to make it and how well you build your patterns/cut it.

Build without washing first. Unlike making clothing when you must wash first (linen shrinks!).

[Chris B]

Those are all good ideas. Thanks. I am going to have to think a lot about this while I am finishing my greaves. I have a few weeks until I can even start them. I may still build in two layers to get the pteryges in two separate layers and then stitch it around the outer edges before I cover the edge with Bias tape. That way the whole thing would at least be stitched on outer edges and it may help to prevent it from separating.

I am wondering how hard it will be to punch through 16 layers of linen to sew the scales. I was thinking 100's of little holes might weaken it, but then again, the stitching might actually keep it together better too! I definately like your idea for the pteryges. I will definately do them that way.

I bought 15 yards. That leaves a few yards for error. I plan on getting two patterns from the width so for every 48" I cut in length I will only plan on using 26" in width. I will make it work or get more material once the layers are all cut before gluing.

[ouragos]

With natural materials, the most robust way of holing is to use an awl - it pushes aside rather than creates a hole, thus gripping the thread once in place. Use natural thread as well not synthetic. Never use synthetic on natural unless you want it to be loose.

The holes will not weaken it - it will be pretty robust once built!

Attached might show you the fold on the pteregues. Easiest pics I have to hand at the moment

Creating the inner pteregues as a composite part of the upper body build is feasible and will probably be neat, my own interpretation is that they would have been a separate attachment though, and I am pretty convinced that the pattern around the waist is a covering for the stitch line - as you can see this same context in the build around the lino as a whole. There is a practicality consideration for repair and refurbishment (I feel - no basis for supporting this and could argue equally as strongly against it) and a detachable inner layer lends itself far better to that.

Glued or not!

If you want to make the linen go further, you could do a patchwork layer as one or two of the inner layers - you would never know when completed and as it is all glued it will not harm integrity.

[ouragos]

Oh... and one other thing before I log off.

The picture of a pattern you posted is oblong - the body curves. Look at the flat part build picture above, things are just layed together, it is wider at the top than at the bottom. Not an enormous amount but enough to make it fit. Essentially, that pattern could be cut out of one, flat piece. Pteregues, well some of them at the main pints of curve, just touch at the end, but hang straight when worn.

[ouragos]

Be careful - Peter's pattern is flawed. It was his first attempt and like many first attempts you learn as you go along, as did he. It was based on the 'Philip' cuirass and thus is squared off.

[Chris B]

Do you mean this illustration? I think it is okay to post since he said we could use it. I am going to do this except not separate the top panels. I understand the argument about the middle layer being weak, but I am going to sew on tons of scales and sew the edges before putting the bias tape on the edge so it will be reenforced with stitching anyways.

[Chris B]

Well, I think it will keep a cleaner look for the way I am laying out my thorax's design. I will still have to sew through 16 layers of linen for the scales, but they will be continuous around the entire body and the stitches will pull the two 8 layer halves in together and reenforce the bond between layer 8 and 9 which would be the half way point separating the top and the bottom pteryges. I just think it will look cleaner to my tastes to do it that way instead of sewing a layer of pteryges to the back of the body.

I think I am going to make mine in this order (combining various suggestions):

1 - Glue 8 layers of linen together slightly larger than my pattern.
2 - Trim this to the right shape when dry and cut apart the pteryges.
3 - Paint the pteryges white and leave the body unpainted.
4 - Sew all edges on the pteryges only with 1/2" black double fold bias tape.
5 - Glue 8 layers of linen together for the top half slightly larger than my pattern. At the same time, glue all 16 layers of the shoulder section.
6 - Trim to the right shape and cut apart upper row of pteryges.
7 - Paint the outer layer only completely white to include pteryges and shoulder section.
8 - Trim the pteryges only with the black bias tape.
9 - Glue lower and upper halves together.
10 - Cut out all the scales and drill holes. Punch holes using leatherworking tools I already have and sew scales through all 16 layers.
11 - Sew a stich on all outside edges of the body.
12 - Now trim the body (excluding pteryeges) with bias tape and also trim the shoulder section.
13 - Sew the shoulder section to the back.
14 - Paint the designs on the outside.
15 - Attach fittings and leather ties.

[Chris B]

I'm not sure I follow on that last comment. So the circumference around my pectorals (say 42") should also be 42" at the belly button? Is that what you mean?

Also, if your sitting in a modern chair up straight, should you pteryges just barely touch your upper groin/thigh or should it bend some down the thigh? Basically, what I am asking is should the pteryges go to your butt on the chair sitting or the tops of the thighs? ... because the top of your thighs are higher than the base of your rear.

The last question for now is where on the body the pteryges start? I am operating on the assumption that the pteryges start at the belly button. Basically the body section of the armor covers the same places a cuirass would cover and then the pteryges go down to the very top of the groin leaving the male anatomy uncovered. Is this right?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

First,I must say that the research i did before making mine convinced me that either both ways were used: cylindrical body and body wider in the chest than in the waist. Or otherwise there is no way to be sure which of the two ways was used. I decided to make it cylindrical and i don't find problems with it. In fact most wall paintings show it cylindrical(together with some sculptures) and most vases show it slightly wider on the chest.
When you sit,the pteryges should barely touch the chair sit. If they didn't cover your thighs when sitting and bending,then why should they stand for?! They should start,as people have told you,in the belly button.They shouldn't cover,or barely cover your genitals.
I'll soon post a drawing of how I'd do the trimming in pteryges in my next linothorax.
Khaire
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Oh,and one more thing about the stitching. I'd do it with metal wire,probably copper. If the thread brakes at any point then it wcould be disastrous. The wire is historically accurate as this is how roman scales were attached to fabric. Flat wire in fact. Do a search in the roman or recontruction section,there's a wealth of info. In fact,you could even make the portion of the thorax covered with scales half as thick if you want. Sone roman loricae segmentatae appear to be stiff enough!
Khaire
Giannis