Swastika on roman army shields/gear

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

In Georgia, I remember vividly, it is illegal to buy alcohol on sundays, which I personally find a much more freedom-restricting law than the German laws about Nazi emblema ...

Amen to that, Brother! :evil: But not on the military installation, where our centurio dwells - that inhumane law is no good out there :twisted:

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

In Georgia, I remember vividly, it is illegal to buy alcohol on sundays

... as long it is not forbidden to be drunk on sunday ;-) )

[Primvs Pavlvs]

You can't have your swastika, and drink your beer too!!

I met some WW2 Wehrmacht re-enactors from Germany last summer, and they informed me that re-enacting non-SS, or politcal units was perfect legally in Germany now. However, they were not allowed to display the Reichsadler. Several of them had converted the Hackenkreuz by stitching smiley faces over the offending symbols :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bran ap Maclou]

Hi !

We often have such a discussion with the germanic reenactors. For us, Svastika in itself is not bad. But in France scars from WWII are still alive and painfull.

Something happened a few years ago in Normandy. An XIth cent. normand reenactor (the hastings battle kind of) made a fest at the begining of june (the sixth) not very far from Omaha beach. His belt was made of weaved woolen dark blue "squared"svastikas on a clear blue background. During the afternoon, an old lady from a former fighters association (very present in this region at this time of year) walked on him and she slapped him so hard that his spangenhelm felt. She began to insult him saying that the symbols on his belt was a shame and so on. As a former resistant, she was arrested in 1944 and tortured by both french milice and german gestapo. Considered as a terrorist she was deported in Buchenwald and she survived. One thing I remember, she reproached him to wear the svastikas so close from the military allied cemetaries. So, as european from the XXIth cent. still marked by the consequencies of WWII, we try to stay respectful for these people (who are our grandparents), I can imagine that a jew could be shocked also.

So, I both understand the shock she lived when she saw the svastikas and I also understand and share the wish of most of reenactors to rehabilitate this classical symbol. I guess that it is easier in the USA anyways. Some of our friends in germanic reenactors in France wear some svastikas without problems. But they select them, they choose models so hidden in a rich background or curvy shapes (and never black straight ones on a white disk for a red tunica) that no one would call them svastikas or realize their presence.

Bye,

Greg

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

When I got out of the Army I used to wear my old fatigues on archaeological projects I worked on. This was in the southwest United States. This was the 1970s and there were very few vets on these projects. On several occasions I was asked why I was wearing a German nazi eagle on my shirt. It was not any such thing, it was my Air Crewman wings. I was also asked how many babies I killed to get my Combat Medical Badge. (I flew rescue missions in an unarmed red cross marked helicopter.) Some students complained that my uniform shirt was 'offensive". I blew off the complaints in a non-PC manner. One drunk from Sweden tried to pick a fight with me one time screaming some nonsense I could not understand that he claimed he had read in Pravda.

Later that summer a large number of outlaw motorcycle gang members turned up at a concert wearing swastikas, German helmets and insignia including the SS runes. The same student crowd I worked with ignored the nazi connotation and remarked how cool the bikers were, and what great drugs they had. There is a lesson in this somewhere, I am sure.

However, from the above posts this is apparent: If you are prohibited from law to wear things in your area, don't. If you can and want to, do it. If you are at an event and can explain historical context and meaning to a group that is receptive, then it is educational and worthwhile. This is, I believe one of the main purposes of reemactment. However, I do not recommend trying this with academics, in particular those who study culture or history because they are not receptive, and have, on occasion, become violent with people who do not agree with their a priori assumptions.

R. Izard

[caiusbeerquitius]

I do not recommend trying this with academics, in particular those who study culture or history because they are not receptive, and have, on occasion, become violent with people who do not agree with their a priori assumptions.

Speaking of stereotypes... :roll: :lol:
If I read such stements I am often not sure if I should cry or laugh. Right now I decided to laugh.

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Speaking of stereotypes... :roll: :lol:

Yea, stereotypes... vets are stereotyped a lot... the most often by academics who decry stereotyping. One of life's complexities. That was my experience. And I don't remember seeing you on any of the projects I was on... Perhaps you can visit and wear a swastika and see about the social process of stereotyping.

Incidentally, I am returning to work on my PhD in archeology and history this fall. The degree is problematic since I already have a double Masters. One of the considerations is a warning from the Veterans Administration not to be identified as a vet since vehicles in the University area are often vandalized if they display any sticker or decal that is associated with military service. Some eighteen,I think, vehicles were seriousy damaged on one ocassion. On the positive note it is now a violation of civil as well as criminal law to harass any disabled veteran. This is now enforced where it did not exist or was ignored following the Vietnam war. Some disciplines were more militant than others. And it varried in place and time.

Pardon my digression

Ralph

[Caius Fabius]

Everyone, please refer to the rules for posting, just adding a smiley face does not take the sting away from words if they are written in a hurtful way, even if that is not ntended.

Yes I am a 'vet'.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Ralph, I slowly get the impression that whenever there is an opportunity you start talking about this topic, and endlessly jump around on it. Aren´t there any forums out there where you can discuss this stuff with people more interested in it, instead of bringing this into Roman Army Talk all the time? The story about the cars / bumper stickers I read now for the second or third time. It doesn´t get more interesting through repetition. And it is modern politics. And it has nothing to do with Swastikas on Roman gear, or topics directly linked to it.


So, first you ignore forum rule #2:

However, I do not recommend trying this with academics, in particular those who study culture or history because they are not receptive, and have, on occasion, become violent with people who do not agree with their a priori assumptions.

, and then forum rule #1:

One of the considerations is a warning from the Veterans Administration not to be identified as a vet since vehicles in the University area are often vandalized if they display any sticker or decal that is associated with military service. Some eighteen, I think, vehicles were seriousy damaged on one ocassion.

Maybe you want to think about this for a minute or so, and reconsider, whether it is really necessary to bring this up again and again.
And you shouldn´t think this is an attack on what you are saying about Veteran rights and the cars etc. - it is not. It´s just that RAT is not the place for it. Maybe in off-topic, you could try and start a thread there.

And I don't remember seeing you on any of the projects I was on...

What? :o I have a secret Teleporter on my left cheek. Looks like a tiny swastika.

Yea, stereotypes... vets are stereotyped a lot... the most often by academics who decry stereotyping.

See, and while saying this you stereotype them. Both groups are apparently the same stubborn bullheads. So what´s the fuss about it...

stitching smiley faces over the offending symbols

Ha! That is funny. Do they match colours with the uniform, or are they black-and-yellow?

You can't have your swastika, and drink your beer too!!

It works in Italy. In Russia you can have Swastikas and Vodka. :wink:

[Tarbicus]

If it were legal to walk around with my cock hanging out I wouldn't, simply because I know I would offend people regardless of the law, and regardless of my right to 'exercise freedoms'.

When you decide to do something you make a decision about how it might affect others, and as such you should be willing to accept any consequences. You're not stupid, you know the deal, and it's no good hiding behind the freedom banner when reality says it's offensive to wear or display something. The reaction of the old ex-resistance French lady is the best example of that.

You make an informed choice and accept the consequences. All else is purely academic and wishful thinking. There's no such thing as 100% social freedom, and pure democracy doesn't exist - it's a cut down version everywhere that thinks of itself as 'democratic' no matter what the version.

If an old lady walks up to you and slaps you in the face because you're wearing swastikas, then you knew it could happen and don't be surprised if it does; you made a dumb choice.

It's a shame Hitler hijacked the symbol, and it's a shame modern neo-Nazis still do. But they did and do. Don't expect a friendly reception to it, especially in places that still bear the scars and the associations.

'Can do' doesn't mean 'must do', and when unsure I sometimes ask myself, "What would my mum and dad think?" Usually a good start.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Bravo. *signs*

[arklore70]

Well said Jim.

Mike

[Primvs Pavlvs]

If it were legal to walk around with my cock hanging out I wouldn't, simply because I know I would offend people regardless of the law, and regardless of my right to 'exercise freedoms'

Jim,

I did not realize that chickens were offensive, and possibly illegal in the UK.

HHMMMMMM I learn something new everyday! :wink:


Christian,

I believe you are required to turn yourself into the local police station for showing a sense of humor. I believe this is punishable by fine under German law for first time offenders.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmm, that is a sentiment a lot of tourists would do well to remember on foreign holidays! :wink:

[caiusbeerquitius]

No Paul, in fact it´s prison, a fine won´t do. Back in those days... uhhh... I´m so glad we no longer have death penalty... uuuups. Wrong topic. So i´ll go now, law-abiding good German I am, to the next police station. Read you in five or six years...

No, wait. I´m Bavarian. I love to undermine dem Germans. Ha. A life full of laughter awaits me... :lol: