Kalkreise dates to 15-16 AD Germanicus Campaign-NOT Varus!

[Anonymous]

I went back to the site that Uwe has mentioned before ( www.varusschlacht-am-harz.de ) and I find those theories more and more interesting, especially after they found these new camp near Göttingen. Rainer Friebe further thinks that Aliso wasn't Haltern and the rivers Lippe and Ems weren't Lupia(s) and Amisia. So the assumption, Germanicus was rowing down the Ems and left the fleet near Rheine would be wrong. That is important, because Rheine isn't far away from Kalkriese, while the theory that Germanicus' ships were rowing down the river Weser would be a big counter-argument against Klakriese as the site of the Clades Variana.<br>
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<img src="http://home.nexgo.de/berzelmayr/hadrian.gif"/> Est vita misero longa, felici brevis.<br>
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[Robert Vermaat]

Hadrianus,<br>
Unfortunately, unless hard evidence comes along, we will never know if the rivers Lippe and Ems were the Lupia(s) and Amisia or not. Any arguments where Germanicus did or did not leave his ships are assumptions only as long as we don't find any of them. Theories like these have been raging for centuries in Germany.<br>
But we have Kalkriese, and it is an Augustan battle-field, and to me that is the best evidence we have so far. I don't that it <em>must be</em> the Varus site, but as long as there is no other candidate...<br>
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Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Quintius Clavus]

The ongoing work in Germany is important and hopefully will lead to better understanding of what happened in the Varus Battle. I concur with Valerius/Robert that Kalkriese, based on the evidence, is an Augustan battlefield. I have never thought of it as THE Varus battlefield, but rather as A Varus battlefield. I subscribe to the "running battle" scenario for the Clades Variana as described by Dio Cassius.<br>
I wish I could read German (I could somewhat, once upon a time, but too many years have passed without using it at all). I want to learn so much more about the continued digging, discoveries of new sites, etc. that is happening in Germany.<br>
I will say, that for me, a major factor in my own acceptance of Kalkriese as a site where at least a remnant of Varus' legions died, was finding the mass grave(s). Dis-articulated bones buried some few years after, based on the forensic studies of the bones, of generally healthy young adult and adult males. The act of burial, as described in Tacitus, by Germanicus' troops could explain the presence of a coin or two minted after the year 9.<br>
It is probably only a slim chance that we will ever know definitively that Kalkriese is a site of the Clades Variana, but it still has good claims for now; better than any other place can at present.<br>
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Marcus Quintius Clavus <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

one of Rainer Friebe's theories against the assumption that the river Lippe was once called Lupia and that Haltern would be the famous Aliso (where refugees of the Clades Variana were sieged by the Germanics) is that this fortress is quite close to the much more secure Legionary camp Vetera, so why should they have stayed in Haltern instead of instantly moving towards the Rhine?<br>
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<img src="http://home.nexgo.de/berzelmayr/hadrian.gif"/> Est vita misero longa, felici brevis.<br>
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[Robert Vermaat]

Like I said, such theories are based only on a 'what if'and a 'why not'and not on any sources or archaeological evidence. There have ben dozens of such theories, and while discussing them may be nice and can be useful, they add nothing solid.<br>
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But for what it's worth; why was Haltern besieged, and did the Romans not move to the Rhine (I assume it's them you mean by 'they'?). Well, maybe the Romans meant to stay on and were not convinced enough of the disaster. Or maybe they were cut-off by the advancing tribes. Anyway, Haltern was given up later.<br>
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Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>