PTSD

[Lucius Galerius Falconius]

Did legionaries suffer from PTSD? Were they accustomed to bloodshed (i.e. gladiators, public executions, etc)? Or did veteran legionaries suffer like soldiers do in modern times.

[Tarbicus]

I don't see how we'll ever know. It wasn't even recognised until the First World War IIRC, and even then many a so-called coward was shot.

Take the atrocities in Bosnia which have affected many a UN soldier. But has the same happened to Serb/Croatian/etc soldiers or militia who enacted such atrocities, the latter probably being more akin to Roman soldiers in their behaviour?

Perhaps the discussion should be limited to Combat Stress Reaction?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_stress_reaction

It was rare for a battle to go beyond a day. Personally, I can't see it. But, if it did occur it would take a lot of reading between the lines of volumes and volumes of research, and even then you could never be certain IMHO.

[Jon Eaton]

Although not the Roman period, some research has been carried out on the similarities between the traumatic experiences and behaviour of soldiers in Homer and Vietnam.

See: 'Achilles in Vietnam' and 'Odysseus in America' by Jonathan Shay.

[Arminius Primus]

Ave,

I agree it may be like trying to chase a rat down a hole to determine if the Legions suffered from PTSD. But I can offer a few observations. PTSD is directly related to cultural expectations. In other words if you are expected to commit mayhem for the state and culturally attuned to that, then the incidence of PTSD would be minimal. It would most likely surface on the losing side of the civil wars. ...and then it would not have been recognized as such. Most likely then, described as a curse from the gods for disloyalty to the state.

Straying a bit off topic, but I can provide direct observations on the Croatians through their resettlement program. They place the highest emphasis on psychological counseling for their resettled personnel. No other nation in the Balkans comes close to the amount of psychological support and counseling these troops get. The IOM estimated that at least 45% of the resettled veterans with agricultural and small business programs would have failed without continued psychological support.

Regards from the Balkans, Arminius Primus aka Al

[Sean Manning]

I wonder myself. The problem is that all the modern data comes from societies which are a lot more peaceful than the ancients, and most of it from wars which are worse for the soldiers than most ancient wars. You occasionally see attempts to prove that Alexander the Great was suffering from PTSD, and its fairly clear that a decade of war took its toll on his mind.

Thanks for the insights, Al.

[arklore70]

I have not seen or heard of anything mentioned in writing.

That said, I would bet that some legionaries and auxilia did suffer some amount of pysoclogical trauma.

While society back say in the 1st Century may have had different cultural values on the value of human life and behaviour/expections of combat, one aspect that has not changed is fear and stress that is placed on the individual soldier.

Fear for one's own life and failure to perform can place a tremdous amout of stress on a person; some handle it better than others but it effects every one in contact. Seeing your comrades get chewed up, shattered, broken, burned, or die in very brutal, painful ways can/will have an efffect on you. Trust me.

Discipline, courage, experience, and fear of letting your comrades/superiors down help to control this, but it is still present.

The human body and mind has not evolved or changed very much in 2000 years; cultural and values have. Well at least what the "medical folks" say.

I am sure they were effected by some sort of PTSD as well as Traumatic Brain Injuries from blows to the head, but cultural values of the period, lack of continued daily combat, and the close knit society of the Roman Army more than likley helped these soldiers to cope and heal.

V/r
Mike

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

I have not seen or heard of anything mentioned in writing.

That said, I would bet that some legionaries and auxilia did suffer some amount of pysoclogical trauma.

While society back say in the 1st Century may have had different cultural values on the value of human life and behaviour/expections of combat, one aspect that has not changed is fear and stress that is placed on the individual soldier.

Fear for one's own life and failure to perform can place a tremdous amout of stress on a person; some handle it better than others but it effects every one in contact. Seeing your comrades get chewed up, shattered, broken, burned, or die in very brutal, painful ways can/will have an efffect on you. Trust me.

Discipline, courage, experience, and fear of letting your comrades/superiors down help to control this, but it is still present.

The human body and mind has not evolved or changed very much in 2000 years; cultural and values have. Well at least what the "medical folks" say.

I am sure they were effected by some sort of PTSD as well as Traumatic Brain Injuries from blows to the head, but cultural values of the period, lack of continued daily combat, and the close knit society of the Roman Army more than likley helped these soldiers to cope and heal.

V/r
Mike

yes, pretty right ... I'd only add that in modern societies the discrepance between the expectations on the soldier and on the individual returning from war are the problem. Living in a peaceful democracy and then fighting in war for, say 2-3 years, and then turning back in your old life, where all the things aren't tolerated, you are forced to do in war, is far more demanding to a soldier, than way back then serving 20 years with the legions or else. I'm not sure on this, but think that PTSD is no big problem, as long the soldiers serve.

[P. Clodius Secundus]

The effects of combat stress in World War I were generally recognized as either "shell-shock", which was attributed to the physical and psychological effects of concussive trauma, and "nostalgia" which more closely resembles what we know as PTSD. Although the terms change with the particular conflict both syndromes and their varitations seem to have been present in all human conflict. I see no reason why the Roman Army would have been immune. As someone has already noted, there are any number of factors which determine how severely a soldier will be impacted. The most significant is probably the level of violence and trauma one is likely to encounter outside of military service. In this respect the gladiatorial games may have served a purpose of "hardening" troops or at least coarsening the society to which they would eventually return. I would suspect that if there were evidence it would be more likely found during the Republic when terms of service were limited to a campaign and citizen-soldiers would have to reassimilate on a continual and seasonal basis. Once service becomes a profession and the contuburnium takes the place of traditional family and society it would be easier for a soldier to deal with the problems when surrounded by those who can truly sympathize rather than trying to empathize.

[Celer]

Salve,

Battle shock was recognised in the ancient world. Vegetius recommends that if possible, soldiers should be acclimatised to the sight of blood and death before a campaign, because of the effect this could have on the soldiers. He recognised that even experienced campaigners could be affected if they hadn't seen any action for a while.

Also there is a Papyrus, from the Oxyrhinus deposits (I think) which contains a strength roster for a century, and as far as I can remember 2 or 3 soldiers were listed as off duty due to battle stress.

Further back in history, just consider the effect that the sight of soldiers killed by Roman swords had on the Greek armies.

Hope this helps,

Vale,

Celer.

[martijn.wijnhoven]

Not exactly PTSD, but this is a nice related paper that can be found online:
Barry P.C. Molloy and Dave Grossman: Why can't Johnny kill?: the psychology and physiology of interpersonal combat from the book The Cutting Edge Barry Molloy (Ed.).

Link:
http://www.combat-archaeology.org/Chapter15.pdf

Cheers,

Martijn

[Narukami]

Interesting article -- Thanks for the link

A bit off the main topic: I would recommend The Warriors by Glen Gray for some interesting insights into the question of killing in combat.

http://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Reflecti ... 103&sr=8-1

Some people have a problem with this book, but I found it to be quite insightful when I first read it nearly 30 years ago (My how time flies...or is that fruit that flies...?) Seems just as good and relevant today.

Again, thanks for the link Martijn

:wink:

Narukami

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

A good selection of relevant book there on the site to Dave!

[Ross Cowan]

From a third cent. AD (?) papyrus from Egypt:

"Marcus to Antonia, Sarapion and Cassianos, my parents, many greetings. I make obeisance for you in the presence of the gods sharing the temple. For no one can go up river to make obeisance, because of the battle which has taken place between the Anoteritae and the soldiers. Fifteen soldiers of the singulares (guardsmen) have died, apart from the legionaries, evocati, the wounded, and those suffering from battle fatigue." (P. Ross. Georg. III 1.1-7, trans by R.W. Davies ‘The Medici of the Roman Armed Forces,’ Epigraphische Studien 8 (1969), 94)

[john m roberts]

Ross,
Any idea what Latin (or Greek) term got translated as "battle fatigue"?
One of the reasons we know so little about such things in antiquity is that few writers bothered to record the problems and travails of ordinary people, whether peasants or common soldiers.

[Sean Manning]

Not exactly PTSD, but this is a nice related paper that can be found online:
Barry P.C. Molloy and Dave Grossman: Why can't Johnny kill?: the psychology and physiology of interpersonal combat from the book The Cutting Edge Barry Molloy (Ed.).

Link:
http://www.combat-archaeology.org/Chapter15.pdf

Cheers,

Martijn

You have to be careful with Grossman's work because he doesn't consider cultural differences or the fact that the mind is much more complicated than the three Fs. See some of his predictions about hunters or first-person shooter players which don't seem to be supported by the evidence. But that paper is quite nteresting- it looks like the co-author toned down some of Grossman's extravagancies.

One of my professors told me that the Spanish army in Flanders recognized psychological wounds from combat as a legitimate way a soldier might be disabled in the sixteenth century. Interestingly, that's when months-long campaigns in the mud and gunpowder weapons were becoming common.