Scutum grip question

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Salve,

I finished my scuta recently, but I have a feeling that the horizontal aspect of the handle may be too far away from the shield back. How far should the back of your hand be away from the shield backing when you grip the handle?
More clearly, should the back of your fist/hand be touching the back of the scutum when you are gripping it? I would almost think that it might assist in the control of it...

Any pictures as well as commentary of your findings etc. would be most welcome.

Gratiam habeo,

Phillip

[Aurelianus]

Hi Phillip

There unfortunately are not so many sources about this (AFAIK).

I made my Scutum grip like the Duro Europos shield. My left hand doesn't really agree ...... :

Dura Europos



.

[Aurelianus]

An interesting picture which i took at colosseum at the Natale di Roma Event:

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Lucius,

Very interesting... The Dura Europos looks like the grip runs tight along the back face of the scutum with now outwards angling to give more "hand space". Probably just an extension of the central bracing???This is exactly what I was wondering about.... should the Umbo cutout be in contact with the back of your hand (possibly padded with sheep wool or something) to gain you a little more contact with the plane of the shield... otherwise it will just wobble and turn/torque about badly in your grip and tire you out prematurely.

[Matthew Amt]

On some surviving shields (such as those from Dura Europas), the center hole is actually in 2 parts, leaving a strip between which serves as the grip. It can be reinforced with a horizontal bar. That's how I usually do them these days:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/scugrp3.jpg

Or you can just cut a circular hole and run the grip across the back,

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/scugrp.jpg

I've never had any problem with my hand or wrist getting chafed, so I have to assume that I am (once again!) the proper historical body shape! But you can enlarge the hole upwards some, or add a little padding if REALLY necessary. Just please don't wear some kind of leather bracer thingy on your arm... Note that you can make the hole larger than the dome on your boss, because the boss's flange will cover the hole. That gives you a little more space to play with.

I've also never had any problem with stability. It's a perfectly comfortable and solid grip.

The one problem you can run into if the grip is set farther back is that this also moves the center of balance back. If your shield is deeply curved, that shouldn't be much of a problem, but if it's relatively shallow it might have a tendency to tip forward, which can be annoying.

Vale,

Matthew

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Looking at that photo above, the grip looks to be a separate piece.

I pad my handle hole with sheepskin, as it will cause nerve damage and numb your hand if worn with a segmentata

I find with my handle, on both my scuta, the shield tips back onto my shoulder, which to me is desireable.

[Matthew Amt]

I pad my handle hole with sheepskin, as it will cause nerve damage and numb your hand if worn with a segmentata

That sounds like a problem with your armor, not with the shield. If the girdle section is too large, and doesn't fit closely to the sides of your body, the upper girdle plates can press outwards into the inside of your arm. That cuts off circulation and causes trouble!

I find with my handle, on both my scuta, the shield tips back onto my shoulder, which to me is desireable.

Right, it *should* lean back towards you, not away from you.

Vale,

Matthew

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

no, it is not the armour, it fits perfectly, just a combination of the edge of the hole pressing into the top of may hand...anyway we have discussed this before and all is well now!



Wes may recognise elements of my gladius in these pics...?



This one I have not used in anger yet, but will also pad it wit hsheepskin once I have added a new spina and umbo!

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Here's another tidbit... how big should the handle be in circumference?

I think that might be part 2 of my problem...

I am bleeding unnecessary energy stabilizing the scutum with grip strength because the handle is arched too far away from the shield body.

Secondly I think that the handle may be too large a diameter (I think 1.5" + ) which doesn't seem to allow the fingers to lock around that well. All of the pictures I have seen so far would seem to indicate that it should be significantly smaller in diameter.

And Gaius, I see you bevelled in the edges of the wooden section for your umbo hole (I know that sounds tawdry :wink: )
That combined with a bit of sheep's wool should really do the trick.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I wish I could take credit, but that is Jorge of Armillum in spains work! A very nice Republican sutum! I love it!

But I did bevel my Augustan scutum hole to remove sharp edges before the sheepskin went on and it is like a glove now. I recommend it entirely!!

And yes, the handle diameter is important too.
the first scutum I bought was Deepeekas 'Centurions sheild".....
A grip that a giant would need maybe. I was made by screwing 2 shaped pieces of wood to the center strip running across the hole, which is not ideal in my mind.

the handle is better when it is incorporated as part of the reinforcing strip, as the one in the picture, and on my Augustan. Both are wonderfully ballanced in the hand, and lean back into your shoulder naturally!!

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Makes me wish that I would have cut my Umbo section out in 2 "D" sections as opposed to a complete circle. Oh well, maybe I'll do that on my Mk III design :roll:

As it stands, I am going to have to incorperate the handle into the central bracing, and downsize it for the love of all that is good and holy

Gaius, where in the UK are you? My wife is a London / Birmingham mix :lol: ( I am a Gaul living in Canada )

I had a dream the other night about the Boudicca revolt, and I was a Centurion trying to fend them off at the stand... I apparently kicked my wife in the leg in my sleep... coincidence? I think not :twisted:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:lol:

Up in Aberdeen in Scotland.

Actually, I would not incorporate it with the 2 D cut-out, but just make it stand out a litlle less next time.

OK I guess the pic above has the center strip of the 2 'D's, but my augustan does not, and both are well balanced. So i think it is just a question of fine tuning the construction, whichever method you use. I you do the double-D do not make it tooo big, and if yoi do a seperate handle method, do not make it stand out too far from the scutum....if that makes any sense at all?

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

It makes perfect sense.
What size of wood do you use for the internal bracing?
Also, what type of wood is best?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That is a question you will need to ask the guys who have made them, but I would imagine something with an element of flexibility and strength?

I haven't made one myself, so can only give you info on my experience of use and the construction cues as I see them.......

I will measure mine when I get home tho, ad post it in this thread on the weekend!

[Hibernicus]

I am a huge fan of sheepskin as padding not only for the wrist along the upper edge of the hand hole but also inside the umbo. Having enough sheepskin inside greatly reduces the shock of impact. I usually had so much sheepskin that I had to wedge my hand inside the umbo. I learned that from years of simulated combat with the SCA. Sometimes the force of impact was so great that I would lose my grip and my hand would slam into the umbo.. ouch!.. and one time my umbo (14g steel) got crushed! Having that sheepskin padding inside saved my fingers.