Cavalry name

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Nah,Stefane,it's not only Plato. It's Homer(and with him the majority of the educated world),the fact that the citizens of every city state formed either the cavalry(the aristocrats) or the phalanx,the fact that "The greek dory defeated the persian bow" as Herodotus said, the statement of the Spartan who was cought in Sphacteria that "if only the arrow could destinguish the brave from the coward" etc etc. The question is,why would an archer dress like a hoplite with linothorax,heavy helmet,and greaves? I tend to believe it's more symbolic than anything else. For anyone who has practices archery knows that the slightest detail can affect an arrows flight. Imagine this with a corinthian helmet and a linothorax. Further more,an archer is famous for his capability to avoid hand to hand combat with the phalanx. How can a heavilly armed archer avoid this contact? What happened on ships i don't know. We do know that there were specific numbers of archers and hoplites in each ship. These may had been 10 hoplites and 4 archers,or it may varried according to the occasion. These hoplites had to be armed and armoured appropriately not only to fight on deck,but also form a phalanx and fight effectively in land. They did so many times in the Peloponnesian war. Could they just have a bow only for when it was needed? For some reason I doubt. It was a matter of status,and multipurpose troops did not exist yet.
Khaire
Giannis

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Back to the cavalry issue:

Most people will tell you that there were no shields but Hereon (Temple of Hera) in Samos depicts horsemen with shields and most heavy horsemen in pottery are describes as "mounted hoplites" but this is very convenient in my opinion.:

I very much agree Stefanos!

I’m sure I have read somewhere, in some modern books (one may have been an Osprey), that that Greek horsemen didn’t carried shields; but I have found a large number of pottery, statuettes and carvings from the Greek mainland and colonies that shows that Greek cavalrymen did carry shields on horseback not only strapped to the back, as in your example from the National Museum Athens, but held on the left arm ready, it would seem, for use. Perhaps if the shield is slung on the back, while riding, it is being transported to battle rather than used on horseback but if it is held in the arm it suggests it is in use on horseback.

We don't usually see them fighting that ways though. And I wonder,were they actually fighting on horseback dressed like hoplites.

It is clear that there were lightly armoured cavalrymen who did not carry shields, but it seems fairly clear that some did. The best way to prove their use in a cavalry battle would be an ‘action shot’ of one in cavalry use however. The closest I’ve got to this is in the pottery image here (attached) from the Beasley Archive.

It dates from 575-525 and although it was found in Bologna it describes it’s ‘fabric’ as Athenian. I assume this means that is where it was made. It shows lines of marching hoplites and the cavalrymen, riding fast/charging it would seem, with shields in their left hand and drawn swords. This seems plain that the cavalrymen are about to engage in battle with their shields.

[Pericles of Rhodes]

But all those bronze statuettes and all grave stelai I can remember don't show them with shields.

There is the famous bronze statuette I saw in the British museum, which although it has now lost them, is mentioned in its description as ‘Bronze statuette of a warrior on horseback. He once held a spear and shield’. This was made in Taranto in 550BC

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Perhaps early horsemen were fighting with shields in some cases.
This bronze statuette seems not to had been holding anything with the right arm and the left one has no indication of any porpax,though I wouldn't bet on it.
By the way,wan't it the Tarantine cavalry that was supposedly carrying shields? Or am i mistaken?
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

By the way,wan't it the Tarantine cavalry that was supposedly carrying shields? Or am i mistaken?

No, I don't believe you are mistaken. It is generally considered that shielded cavalry, actually fighting with shields from horseback developed in Tarentum, and evolved from an Italiote-Greek sporting event, the anabates a race for horseman carrying small shields.
An excellent summary is contained in Duncan Head's indispensible "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" of the development of these, which first appear on Tarentine coins c.380 BC onward showing small shield, which changes to a large one over time.....they are skirmishing 'light' javelin armed unarmoured cavalry, and the name 'Tarentine' comes to denote these mercenary cavalry, whether from Tarentum or not. In Hellenistic times, they seem to be contrasted with Xystophoroi - armoured, shieldless heavy cavalry who charge with a single-handed Lance/xyston.'Tarentine mercenaries' ( from Tarentum or not) appear in 317 BC who "come up from the sea" to fight for Antigonos, not too long after Alexander's death..
The generally accepted view is that Greek cavalry start to use shields after 317 in imitation of these, or else after Pyrrhos Italian campaigns(281-275 BC) after he encountered/used shielded cavalry in Italy, and the possible appearance of shielded Celtic cavalry in Greece around that time.....

Not every man on horseback is a "cavalryman", and one wonders at the evidential value of these earlier depictions of the 6-5th C BC, when no saddles are shown, ( how do you fight on horseback with a large heavy Aspis without a saddle? hock: ), they often carry 'Heroic' Boeotian shields, and are from a time when pretty much all pottery scenes are mythological.
If the scenes are "real" I would suggest they are more likely to depict religious parades, as at Athens and shown on the Parthenon, and the mounted Hoplites are simply the old aristocrats following tradition......
you would need some more supporting evidence to show that these depictions are "cavalry" in any proper sense of the word....
The idea that 'shielded 'Greek cavalry existed but then later somehow 'forgot' how to use shields, is rather unlikely.......

[Dan Diffendale]

It is generally considered that shielded cavalry, actually fighting with shields from horseback developed in Tarentum, and evolved from an Italiote-Greek sporting event, the anabates a race for horseman carrying small shields.

I know there aren't a lot of sources on this, but wouldn't it make more sense for the sporting event to develop from a military one? e.g. the hoplitodromos showing fitness for infantry combat?

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thank you for your very interesting and informative post Paul!

Not every man on horseback is a "cavalryman", and one wonders at the evidential value of these earlier depictions of the 6-5th C BC, when no saddles are shown, ( how do you fight on horseback with a large heavy Aspis without a saddle? hock: )

Sounds like this is where some experimental archaeology might help! wink:

It seems from some pots that the Aspises used by cavalry were of different sizes. Yes, some used hoplite sized Aspises but some (see attached photo) where smaller, almost Pelte sized round shields. Certainly smaller than those of their infantry counterparts on the other side of the vase, more manoeuvrable perhaps? Though the Aspis would not necessarily have had to be moved all that much on horseback.

they often carry 'Heroic' Boeotian shields, and are from a time when pretty much all pottery scenes are mythological.

Perhaps you are right, but this sounds a little vague and speculative to me :? wink: ! From the pottery that I’ve seen there seems to be no more Boetian style shields than round Aspis-like ones, possibly less.

If the scenes are "real" I would suggest they are more likely to depict religious parades

Possibly, but the horses look like their going fairly fast on the pot image I posted previously and, as you can see, these images posted here show cavalry armed with spears and small shields charging around the pot, with combat on foot on the other side. This pot at least shows combat rather than a parade.

The idea that 'shielded 'Greek cavalry existed but then later somehow 'forgot' how to use shields, is rather unlikely.......

Don’t worry, I’m not suggesting this at all! I imagine it would just be a case of changing panoply for changing times and different tactics, in the same way as hoplites lightened up their panoply by discarding first greaves and then body armour in the 5th and 4th C BC.

[PMBardunias]

No, I don't believe you are mistaken. It is generally considered that shielded cavalry, actually fighting with shields from horseback developed in Tarentum, and evolved from an Italiote-Greek sporting event, the anabates a race for horseman carrying small shields.
An excellent summary is contained in Duncan Head's indispensible "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" of the development of these, which first appear on Tarentine coins c.380 BC onward showing small shield, which changes to a large one over time.....

Somewhere I read an arguement for the "small" sized aspises being artistically reduced- a common feature in such portrayals. Evidently artistically enlarging the aspis in later coins is unlikely to have occured. That said you may be referring to smaller non-aspis shaped shields early on.

Not every man on horseback is a "cavalryman", and one wonders at the evidential value of these earlier depictions of the 6-5th C BC, when no saddles are shown, ( how do you fight on horseback with a large heavy Aspis without a saddle? )

Well, the tarantines seem to have done this at some date.

The idea that 'shielded 'Greek cavalry existed but then later somehow 'forgot' how to use shields, is rather unlikely.......

Why so? This occured in the 16th c.

[Paullus Scipio]

I see that there are many who wish to challenge the view that I posted, as summarised so neatly by Duncan Head, but I don't believe depictions on pots alone suffice to establish that Greek shielded cavalry existed in classical times.
As I pointed out, those depictions can be interpreted any number of ways, and not every horseman represents'cavalry' in the proper sense.What is needed is some supporting evidence, and a major problem is that no literature/history survives earlier than Herodotus ( if indeed there was any)
Without that, I think that the position set out by Duncan, and repeated in my post represents the most reasonable interpretation, based on the evidence we have......until something new comes along! :?

Danno wrote:-

I know there aren't a lot of sources on this, but wouldn't it make more sense for the sporting event to develop from a military one? e.g. the hoplitodromos showing fitness for infantry combat?

...that is certainly possible, and maybe even probable, I would agree.

Pericles/George wrote:-

Perhaps you are right, but this sounds a little vague and speculative to me . Certainly, some scenes may be mythological and a depiction of heroic figures, but this statement could be used against any piece of Greek artistic evidence and is very difficult to prove or disprove without a contemporary written description of the scene. I suppose it depends on whether you think of the pottery as mythological until proven true or true until proven mythological !

..... well, John Boardman is a leading authority on Greek Pottery and has stated that in Athenian pottery at least, 'realistic', as opposed to 'mythological' combat scenes only appear after the Persian wars, prior to which it would seem only Gods and Heroes were fit subjects. I am mindful that the same may not be true of other places ( e.g. Is the Chigi vase a mythological scene? ....or some of the scenes you have posted here?) but most of the surviving pottery from Classical Greece is Athenian ( and most of that from the huge 'midden'/waste dump of broken pottery which still exists AFIK in Athens.....) so if non-mythological scenes are unknown until 500 BC or so there, it might seem likely to be true elsewhere, but I agree with you that without a written description, ( and I see some of the vases in your post show named charcters, but I cannot make them out) vase depictions are open to interpretation, and many things are 'possible' hence the need for some supporting evidence if we are to postulate shielded Greek heavy armoured cavalry

From the pottery that I’ve seen there seems to be no more Boetian style shields than round Aspis-like ones, possibly less.

I would agree with you that Aspis-like shields are the majority, and merely meant that the presence of a 'Boeotian' shield might be a strong indicator that the distant past/mythological times are being depicted ( but that's a whole other debate elsewhere :wink: )
Nor does the fact that a 'mythological' Hero is being depicted preclude contemporary 'real' equipment being shown, of course, but it does tend to cloud the issue....

Possibly, but the horses look like their going fairly fast on the pot image I posted previously and, as you can see, these images posted here show cavalry armed with spears and small shields charging around the pot, with combat on foot on the other side. This pot at least shows combat rather than a parade.

......or it could be interpreted as men riding to battle, then fighting dismounted....as many would do. I would certainly agree that the the presence of drawn weapons on the pots you have posted make a religious parade highly unlikely.But we simply can't be sure what we are looking at, hence the need for some other evidence...

Paul B wrote:-

Somewhere I read an arguement for the "small" sized aspises being artistically reduced- a common feature in such portrayals. Evidently artistically enlarging the aspis in later coins is unlikely to have occured. That said you may be referring to smaller non-aspis shaped shields early on.

Quote:
Not every man on horseback is a "cavalryman", and one wonders at the evidential value of these earlier depictions of the 6-5th C BC, when no saddles are shown, ( how do you fight on horseback with a large heavy Aspis without a saddle? )


Well, the tarantines seem to have done this at some date.

If the coins are to be believed, the Tarantines began by using small shields, but presumably having got used to these, began using large ones - which is what you would expect....and you are right, many peoples managed to fight on horseback with large shields, but most used saddles...

Quote:
The idea that 'shielded 'Greek cavalry existed but then later somehow 'forgot' how to use shields, is rather unlikely.......


Why so? This occured in the 16th c.

I think your analogy is not really a close one...in Classical/Hellenistic times, shields on horseback were a 'new' idea, and became more popular and spread through the mediterranean world, so to give up shields goes against the trend, but in the 16C, shields were abandoned as a useless encumbrance against massed musket fire.....and 'bulletproof' shields that were yet handy was beyond the technology of the time.....entirely different circumstances.

[Dan Diffendale]

but most of the surviving pottery from Classical Greece is Athenian ( and most of that from the huge 'midden'/waste dump of broken pottery which still exists AFIK in Athens.....)

do you mean, most of the surviving Classical pottery found *in Greece* is found in Athens? A large percentage of the currently known Attic figured pottery was found in Italy.

[Paullus Scipio]

do you mean, most of the surviving Classical pottery found *in Greece* is found in Athens? A large percentage of the currently known Attic figured pottery was found in Italy.

....sorry!..... just so, Dan.....

[hoplite14gr]

Klement of Alexandria said Thracians were the first to use shileds on horseback (Stromata 15). The Paul Getty Museum Crater suggests that Athenians followed suit.
Except pottery the Samos Hereon metope is another indication that Greeks knew the use of shields form horse back.
As I have posted ans dome some icons in the "Greek Cavalry" thread a felt "saddle-like" construction was adopted from the Skythians.
And as Paul had said the type of aspis is also a heated subject.
Remember the Vatican shield is one example (And its Etruscan-not Greek).
We really don't know all the types of shields available to the poeple of the time or their exact construction. But this has been discussed in other threads.

Kind regards

[Parmenion]

A great thank for these deep and large answers, I'm glad to have generated this interesting debate. Debate to which I can hardly participate given my English level and my little knowledge in this respect :roll: . But I read hungrily !

Parmenion

[Marcvs75]

some photo's of greek cavalry from the internet

[Marcvs75]