Close up of the banded armour on Trajan\'s Columnn

[Anonymous]

It is very unlikely to be lamellar since the plates are almost certainly fastened to some sort of backing. Scale armour is the most likely bet. The "piping" one can see between the rows is probably padding used to protect the foundation garment from the sharp edges of the scales. One sees the same thing on the Mars of Todi. The earliest example I can think of is the Assyrian stuff. <p></p><i></i>

[Gregg]

Actually the Todi Mars sculpture is generally considered to depict lamellar armor, though not a common type. This type of lamellar had rigid rows of lames laced directly to a foundation, almost certainly a linen cuirass in the case of the Mars sculpture. The Greeks and Etruscans also used scale to fortify the linen cuirass, as can be seen in numerous depictions. Scale is generally considered to consist of small metal plates, wired or sewn to a backing garment, overlapping downwards in a bifurcated pattern. Padding is not needed to protect the backing garment.<br>
<br>
Lamellar armor essentially identical to the Todi Mars sculpture can be seen depicted on numerous 1st century Palmyrene sculptures. And the horse armor depicted on the late Sassanian monument at Taq-i-Bustan seems to depict a similar type. Other depictions of lamellar cuirasses from Khurasan and Sughdia (and numerous others) may show the continued use of this type of lamellar.<br>
<br>
“Trueâ€ÂÂ

[aitor iriarte]

Could we have a reconstructive sketch explaining how that rigid lamellar system is constructed?<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

<img src="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Sarmate_armure.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
A suggested reconstruction of the banded armour on TC.<br>
Any smitty around here would like to volunteer trying to build a real one?<br>
Tempting isn'it? <br>
This hypothesis implies a segmentata type constrcution: the plates being held together by leather straps. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 6/8/04 2:10 pm<br></i>

[Vincula]

According to Robinson (who better?) the Mars of Todi wears a metal version of true lamellar, but I don't know how you tell the difference. Looks the same to me.<br>
<img src="http://members.aol.com/romanwriter1/lamellar.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
Robinson's sketch of actual Tibetan lamellar armor, inside and out, plus a single lamella (showing lacing holes), and tiny (bronze?) lamellae from Corbridge, England. <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Yes, Vincula but now those small copper-alloy 'lamellae' are thought to belong to semi-rigid scale shirts (those with front slits closed by embossed plates) and not to lamellar ones...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Vincula]

Getting back to the Trajan Column ...<br>
<img src="http://members.aol.com/romanwriter1/clasps.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
the armor here doesn't look much like lamellar, and more like Antoninus' sketch. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Thanks Vincula. That is the picture I took for a model. There are two interesting tunics too on TC's pedestal, including one with a focale apparently held by brooches in a very "fashion victim" style.<br>
As for scale and lamellar, Aitor, it reminds me of the sparrow episode in The Holy Graal...<br>
What kind of scale, the rigid scale, or the semi rigid scale?<br>
For me a scale cuirass is a cuirass made of scales that are linked horizontally, but not vertically. It is not rigid and it looks like snakeskin.<br>
If the scales are linked both horizontally and vertically it's a lamellar cuirass. Made with lamellae that do not look like scales at all, especially regarding the placement and number of holes. And it is, logically, rigid. If it is "semi rigid" the movement of the lamellae --provided they are made of metal--will have a scissors effect on the thongs and pretty soon the whole thing will fall apart. It looks like that problem was solved early in the Byzantine era when they developed a new form of lamellar not linked vertically. A sort of scale/lamellar hybrid looking outwardly like lamellar.<br>
[url=http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~tdawson/levantia/byzarmour.html" target="top]www-personal.une.edu.au/~tdawson/levantia/byzarmour.html[/url]<br>
<br>
I don't know what a "semi-rigid" scale cuirass is. These small Carpow lamellae look exactly like what they are: lamellae.. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 6/9/04 2:12 pm<br></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Interesting link, Antoninus but, as far as I know, true lamellae are worn with their curved ends looking upwards and these small 'lamellae' were linked wertically and horizontally by means of wire and had their curved ends looking downwards. I think (I'm not sure) that some of them (not the British ones) were recovered still in connection with a locking breastplate of the kind used for, say, rigid scale.<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Yes indeed Aitor. The construction is featured in Connolly's Greece and Rome at war. But it's not semi rigid, it's totally rigid. It is true lamellar --the lamellae being linked horizontally and vertically-- the only difference being the lamellae pointing downwards instead of upwards.<br>
There are indication that lamellar was used to protect more than the torso and that is was used for horse armour. I suggest that in these cases it was hardened leather, rather than metal. <p></p><i></i>

[Gregg]

Let’ see if I’ve finally managed to figure out how to post photos or not…<br>
<br>
Okay, first let’s take a look at the other banded armor from the base of Trajan’s column:<br>
<br>
<img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ZorchG/banded_armor_2.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
The buckles are essentially identical to the other armor, but we can confirm that the armor was “short sleeved,â€ÂÂ

[aitor iriarte]

I think that if that cuirass has ever existed, it has had to be made of supple (enough) leather...<br>
Off-Topic: You seem to be well providd with pics of the Column's base. Could you, please, post (here or on a new topic) or e-mail me ( [email protected] ) good detailed pics of the draco standards depicted there?<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

True lamellar is a construction that has no need of a backing foundation to maintain structural integrity. If the plates are fastened to a fabric backing then it is scale. If the plates are fastened to each other in such a way that no backing is required, then it is lamellar. There is an intermediary stage in which the scales are fastened to a backing material but also to each other. This is usually called "locking scale" or "rigid scale", but it is definitely scale armour, not lamellar. Based on this definition, the Mars of Todi is some sort of locking scale armour.<br>
<br>
Regarding the above pic from Trajan;s column. It is impossible to assemble "banded" armour with sleeves that look like this. There is definitely some loose artistic interpretation going on here. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 6/11/04 7:27 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

<em>Interesting link, Antoninus but, as far as I know, true lamellae are worn with their curved ends looking upwards and these small 'lamellae' were linked wertically and horizontally by means of wire and had their curved ends looking downwards. I think (I'm not sure) that some of them (not the British ones) were recovered still in connection with a locking breastplate of the kind used for, say, rigid scale.</em><br>
<br>
Hi Aitor,<br>
<br>
Lamellae came in a wide variety of shapes, many of which had scales curving upwards. This illustration shows many of the different shapes so far found.<br>
<br>
<img src="http://www.arador.com/discforums/uploads/post-8-1086977272.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Here is a reconstruction of the wisby lamellar (No.1 in the above illustration). There is flexibility in one direction (horizontal) but not the other (vertical). Otherwise it would be impossible to wrap around the wearer.<br>
<br>
<img src="http://www.ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk/images/lamella2.gif" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 6/11/04 7:29 pm<br></i>